The case of Jeep vs Subaru when it comes to AWD - Page 2 - Jeep Renegade Forum
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post #11 of 74 (permalink) Old 04-09-2015, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Karamich View Post
I mean I have no problem with Jeep going from hardcore off-road trucks to family crossovers / SUVs but Comapss, Patriot, Cherokee or Renegade, as a base model, they are all 2WD without a big deal of a ground clearance. We need to add a package to make them in my opinion worth the distinction of the brand signature called "Jeep"!

Your thought on that?
In this MPG conscious world 2WD and 2WD based 4WD systems has obvious advantages. I personally don't care if it's a true 4x4 or or 4WD or whatever... as long as it works. Unlike Honda's AWD, which is kind of a joke in comparison.

Did you look up ground clearance figures for the Subaru Outback models and Jeep's TH models? Subaru does not have superior ground clearance. It is equal or less than Jeep's. The Renegade TH has the same ground clearance as Subaru's Crosstrek. Both priced similarly, but comparing the interior alone the Renegade has a premium appearance. The Crosstrek on the other hand is very typical of Subaru, miles of inexpensive looking and feeling materials.

I would expect a Subaru fanboy to think Subaru has the upper hand, but it simply isn't the case. Subarus are all passenger car based. This isn't true across the board for Jeep; some are, some aren't. It's apples to oranges. They each have their strengths and weaknesses and appeal to people with different priorities and preferences.

Plus, Subaru also has 2WD versions. They tout their 4WD heritage in marketing, but it isn't all they make.

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post #12 of 74 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fmunk View Post
In this MPG conscious world 2WD and 2WD based 4WD systems has obvious advantages. I personally don't care if it's a true 4x4 or or 4WD or whatever... as long as it works. Unlike Honda's AWD, which is kind of a joke in comparison.

Did you look up ground clearance figures for the Subaru Outback models and Jeep's TH models? Subaru does not have superior ground clearance. It is equal or less than Jeep's. The Renegade TH has the same ground clearance as Subaru's Crosstrek. Both priced similarly, but comparing the interior alone the Renegade has a premium appearance. The Crosstrek on the other hand is very typical of Subaru, miles of inexpensive looking and feeling materials.

I would expect a Subaru fanboy to think Subaru has the upper hand, but it simply isn't the case. Subarus are all passenger car based. This isn't true across the board for Jeep; some are, some aren't. It's apples to oranges. They each have their strengths and weaknesses and appeal to people with different priorities and preferences.

Plus, Subaru also has 2WD versions. They tout their 4WD heritage in marketing, but it isn't all they make.
Yes I agree when it comes to the design. I 100% agree that Jeep design / material is much more fun and youth oriented when it comes to crossovers...

Last year I test drove the Cherokee North + Trailhawk and the Forester XT... The Cherokee design, material, interior and technology were much higher quality and superior in terms of the "gadgets" you get...

Subaru does not seem to invest much in designs of SUVs or they choose to make them vanilla or oriented toward "Senior" clients... Their sporty cars are a little bit on the Rally design side... I am not into sports car though...

Subaru = evolution of proven engineering not revolution... Some people like this process others prefer ground breaking changes at the expense of unknown reliability and durability...

Subaru Outback clearance is 8.7 inches. More than my actual 2010 Patriot 4x4 North (aka latitude) and I bet it has the capability off-road of my 4x4 patriot as per the videos I saw...

As for prices perhaps you are in the US but here in Canada, a Renegade with some AWD related features and winter packate and and and... It is too expensive..,.

AWD is just abscent from 1 sporty Subaru car at least here in Canada... All the rest have AWD in all trims...

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post #13 of 74 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Karamich View Post
I was talking to my cousin the other day, he actually introduced me to Subaru and something came to my mind:

What is the point of the Jeep brand to have by default 2WD crossovers with a 4x4 or AWD as options (costly sometimes) whereas Subaru crossovers are native AWD ?

Native and symetrical AWD + very descent ground clearance is Subaru`s brand signature for their crossovers as for Jeep they are just plugging AWD as an option in their models just like any other make...

I mean I have no problem with Jeep going from hardcore off-road trucks to family crossovers / SUVs but Comapss, Patriot, Cherokee or Renegade, as a base model, they are all 2WD without a big deal of a ground clearance. We need to add a package to make them in my opinion worth the distinction of the brand signature called "Jeep"!

Your thought on that?
Jeep has had 2wd variants since it's inception in the 40s. Subaru's brand has always relied on the 'safety' marketing AWD offers. Jeep doesn't have AWD, it has 4wd.

Not the same thing. There's a simple difference. You can turn off 4wd, and you can't turn off AWD, in the Subaru, or any of the competitors to Jeep. Not to mention the gear-ratios and climbing capability built into something such as the TrailHawks. At most, you'll see most Subarus used in rallycross or some softer trails. The Jeeps are more capable than that. They're built that way.

The other reason the Jeeps are heavier is they're expected to do more of the off-camber, chassis-twisting maneuvers that a Subaru would not be happy with. Not to mention the body-cladding and under-body guards. In the end, a Subaru is a Car, not a Jeep. Not all Jeep buyers want or need to go offroad, they like Jeep, like some people like Subaru & will never Rally their STi. A great many of the JK Wranglers will never see a dirt road, let alone a trail. It's just about the needs and wants of the purchaser. It's all about who wants it and why they want it.

Again; they're two different markets. Subaru doesn't "off-road", they "rally". Flat-land races on gravel roads or gravel lots. Jeep is about low-speed adventure in the wilderness, where there may or not be a trail to guide you on your way. Yes, those that will cross-shop are simply looking for AWD, and many don't know the difference between AWD & 4WD.

It's kind of like comparing the Dodge Hellcats' to the Alfa Romeo 4C. Both go-fast vehicles, but not in the same way.
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post #14 of 74 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Jeep has had 2wd variants since it's inception in the 40s. Subaru's brand has always relied on the 'safety' marketing AWD offers. Jeep doesn't have AWD, it has 4wd.

Not the same thing. There's a simple difference. You can turn off 4wd, and you can't turn off AWD, in the Subaru, or any of the competitors to Jeep. Not to mention the gear-ratios and climbing capability built into something such as the TrailHawks. At most, you'll see most Subarus used in rallycross or some softer trails. The Jeeps are more capable than that. They're built that way.

The other reason the Jeeps are heavier is they're expected to do more of the off-camber, chassis-twisting maneuvers that a Subaru would not be happy with. Not to mention the body-cladding and under-body guards. In the end, a Subaru is a Car, not a Jeep. Not all Jeep buyers want or need to go offroad, they like Jeep, like some people like Subaru & will never Rally their STi. A great many of the JK Wranglers will never see a dirt road, let alone a trail. It's just about the needs and wants of the purchaser. It's all about who wants it and why they want it.

Again; they're two different markets. Subaru doesn't "off-road", they "rally". Flat-land races on gravel roads or gravel lots. Jeep is about low-speed adventure in the wilderness, where there may or not be a trail to guide you on your way. Yes, those that will cross-shop are simply looking for AWD, and many don't know the difference between AWD & 4WD.

It's kind of like comparing the Dodge Hellcats' to the Alfa Romeo 4C. Both go-fast vehicles, but not in the same way.

I did not know Jeep built 2WD variants since its birth as a company, good to know!

Yes AWD is different from 4WD ... I have a classic 4WD (written as 4x4) switcher on my Patriot...

And yes indeed not all Subarus or Jeep buyers get them for off-roading...

As for the rest, I beg to disagree... As a Jeep fan / owner

First I think you are mixing stuff here: the "pure-bred" Jeeps are a different story from the Jeep crossovers with 4WD / 4X4 add-ons. The "pure-bred" Trailhawk trims or Wrangler are certainly more capable than any Subaru, yes indeed but not the ones I was reffering to in this topic.

Second, I disagree on the fact that Subarus do not do "off-roading" and that they are for high speed gravel, flat-land or rallys on sandy trails... Off-Road definition is not only rock crawling or driving through land without any trace for a track...

Again as a Jeep owner and a fan and I said it already that only hard-core Jeeps (Wranglers / Trailhawks) are highly superior and a different story from Subaru...

However, the crossovers at Jeep (that are the initial topic of this thread) with 4WD add-ons can easily be matched in capability with any Subaru crossover in an off-road adventure (minus rocks crawling). As neither of these two crossovers based on cars in both cases can do the harsh things Wranglers / Cherokees TH or GC Overland can do...

Yet Subarus can still go on amazingly rough / uneven / slippery / steep terrains and at low speed doing impressive things...

Simply go on Youtube and take a look at what the nothing attractive in its design, the Forester or the vanilla Family Wagon Outback can do on harsh and rough terrain with street tires...
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post #15 of 74 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 05:37 PM
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Frank Zappa said: "people want excrement"? I give them! For this reason Jeep produces also 2wd. Consumers, especially in Europe, ask suv 2wd. Girls, Moms, Aunts, Grandmothers, Retired who want the suv tall and massive to go at the hypermarket, but that does not ever will practice the off-road, represent a very important market for a car manufacturer; that market crucial to achieve production and sales, that is what it needs to keep alive the brand, get margins by investing in the renewal of the range products specialist. Land Rover also does the same thing.

I have a Renegade Trailhawk with 16.000 km in only 2 months and I am very satisfied of it. I possess even a Subaru Forester SH series (of late 2008) and I think it is a bad car, the worst that I bought in the last 38 years... Dangerous due to poor road holding, with only 4 speed automatic transmission (ridiculous when competitors have minimum 6-speed), steering with no feeling of the road, noisy interior plastics of poor quality, expensive spare parts, front lights fragile with infiltration water (I have changed 6 and they are very expensive). I will never buy more a Subaru. Here in Italy Subaru sells less and less because everyone knows that are low quality cars. The same thing for Mazda CX5 that has fragile components and fragile skyactiv diesel engine. Subaru, Mazda and Ssangyong, three brands at the end of the european sells ranking.
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post #16 of 74 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Frank Zappa said: "people want excrement"? I give them! For this reason Jeep produces also 2wd. Consumers, especially in Europe, ask suv 2wd. Girls, Moms, Aunts, Grandmothers, Retired who want the suv tall and massive to go at the hypermarket, but that does not ever will practice the off-road, represent a very important market for a car manufacturer; that market crucial to achieve production and sales, that is what it needs to keep alive the brand, get margins by investing in the renewal of the range products specialist. Land Rover also does the same thing.

I have a Renegade Trailhawk with 16.000 km in only 2 months and I am very satisfied of it. I possess even a Subaru Forester SH series (of late 2008) and I think it is a bad car, the worst that I bought in the last 38 years... Dangerous due to poor road holding, with only 4 speed automatic transmission (ridiculous when competitors have minimum 6-speed), steering with no feeling of the road, noisy interior plastics of poor quality, expensive spare parts, front lights fragile with infiltration water (I have changed 6 and they are very expensive). I will never buy more a Subaru. Here in Italy Subaru sells less and less because everyone knows that are low quality cars. The same thing for Mazda CX5 that has fragile components and fragile skyactiv diesel engine. Subaru, Mazda and Ssangyong, three brands at the end of the european sells ranking.
Interesting. It is bizarre how the market can flip upside down from a country to another. Here (Canada / Montreal) Mazda and Subaru are considered durable and quality products.
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post #17 of 74 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 10:10 PM
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I did not know Jeep built 2WD variants since its birth as a company, good to know!

Yes AWD is different from 4WD ... I have a classic 4WD (written as 4x4) switcher on my Patriot...

And yes indeed not all Subarus or Jeep buyers get them for off-roading...

As for the rest, I beg to disagree... As a Jeep fan / owner

First I think you are mixing stuff here: the "pure-bred" Jeeps are a different story from the Jeep crossovers with 4WD / 4X4 add-ons. The "pure-bred" Trailhawk trims or Wrangler are certainly more capable than any Subaru, yes indeed but not the ones I was reffering to in this topic.

Second, I disagree on the fact that Subarus do not do "off-roading" and that they are for high speed gravel, flat-land or rallys on sandy trails... Off-Road definition is not only rock crawling or driving through land without any trace for a track...

Again as a Jeep owner and a fan and I said it already that only hard-core Jeeps (Wranglers / Trailhawks) are highly superior and a different story from Subaru...

However, the crossovers at Jeep (that are the initial topic of this thread) with 4WD add-ons can easily be matched in capability with any Subaru crossover in an off-road adventure (minus rocks crawling). As neither of these two crossovers based on cars in both cases can do the harsh things Wranglers / Cherokees TH or GC Overland can do...

Yet Subarus can still go on amazingly rough / uneven / slippery / steep terrains and at low speed doing impressive things...

Simply go on Youtube and take a look at what the nothing attractive in its design, the Forester or the vanilla Family Wagon Outback can do on harsh and rough terrain with street tires...
Don't misunderstand. I'm in agreement with you for the most part. A car can do whatever its driver puts it through. We've seen the videos of a Crown Vic that is a regular at Moab, so obviously a Subaru could make it. My point was more who they market to, not what the capabilities (or lack thereof in some instances) are or aren't. Mostly that is limited by the driver & tires; and in some cases by the obstacles themselves. Subies have huge front overhangs, so you might not get it to climb at the same angles as the Renegade, but the Cherokee, sure. If you wanted to.

It's purely marketing conjecture otherwise. How many Subies do you see at Moab? How many Jeeps? How many Subies do you see at GRC/WRC events? How many Jeeps? .. ya know? The marketing is the difference, except that even the base model Renegade 4wd systems, are still 4wd, not AWD, like a CRV or Rav4, for instance. But you know that already.
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post #18 of 74 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 07:39 AM
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The marketing is the difference, except that even the base model Renegade 4wd systems, are still 4wd, not AWD, like a CRV or Rav4, for instance. But you know that already.
The Renegade is an AWD system. Anything describing it otherwise is marketing. Sorry. Same goes for the patriot and compass. The only thing differentiating the renegade from many other 4wd systems is the degree to which it can disconnect the rear wheels form the drive train to aid fuel economy (clearly by the EPA numbers, this was a massive success... not), and the fact they give you a button to get bossy with the AWD software. That's it.
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The Renegade is an AWD system. Anything describing it otherwise is marketing. Sorry. Same goes for the patriot and compass. The only thing differentiating the renegade from many other 4wd systems is the degree to which it can disconnect the rear wheels form the drive train to aid fuel economy (clearly by the EPA numbers, this was a massive success... not), and the fact they give you a button to get bossy with the AWD software. That's it.
AWD cannot disconnect; 4wd can. That is the only difference between the two.
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It really isn't. There's gear reduction, there's how you couple things, there's how you set up differentials and what locks and unlocks.

What is traditionally referred to as 4wd will not run at highway speeds. The renegade system should be able to.

Realistically there are maybe 4-5 systems lumped in as 4wd. They are not functionally the same. There are probably about 6-7 you'd class as awd and growing.

The renegade system differs from my subie system by one limited slip diff, software, a button and the ability to disconnect the drive shaft to avoid parasitic loss.

It takes the tricks being added to awd for safety and performance and uses those tricks to simulate a 4wd system. But it has no gear reduction ability, and it won't lock all wheels into equal power distribution, which are pretty much assumed features when using the 4wd tag. Also viscous vs. mechanical couplings, etc. Wet clutches vs. dog clutches.

I personally think it's clever and interesting, but it's not really traditional 4wd. It's not a particularly traditional awd system either. But awd is a much looser term and still kind of evolving.
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