Bogus review - Page 3 - Jeep Renegade Forum
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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 07:35 PM
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I'm a huge fan of the Renegade ! Love the way it looks, drives all the options for the price. They do some strange things sometimes. If your not technical or have access to a forum like this it could be a pain in the rear. I will say that if they can work out the issues real soon if they haven't worked a lot of them out already the "Baby Jeep" is totally awesome ! It seems to have a cult like following. You either adore it or hate it. The one we have is my wife's. I have about one more year of payments on my 2012 Taurus. So when that's up if they still make the Renny and they've improved upon certain areas I can definitely say I'm getting one ! Mine will be better than hers LMAO
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Originally Posted by TH4x4 View Post
Just because a resolution was never posted doesn't make it bogus. I was the one who had an issue with the seatbelt clicking. After a 2nd dealer looked at the seatbelt along with a rep from FCA it was found that the retractor mechanism was improperly assembled and coming apart internally causing the belt to move and cause noise . Long term is it could have come apart completely which would have translated into a safety concern... hmmm... bogus? I think not...
Ok sorry.
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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 08:48 AM
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@nytq This is the first vehicle I've ever purchased and had problems with that have gone this far for FCA to offer a buy back before I file Lemon Law. I don't think I qualify for this black cloud, not that you said I did. I measured the bad reviews with the good and made the same judgement beforehand. More people come to complain than come to praise, and went with it anyway. A "mere few" might be right in that 1 in every 77,000 FIATs have a lemon reported, but compared to 1 in 11.5 million Toyotas, I'd say there's a problem. And let's be honest, this is more FIAT than Jeep.

Read:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...emon-list.html

@tazzel I could care less what everyone else thinks of their renegades. I really don't want anyone to hate theirs. I've said it time and time again, I like sooo many things about my renegade, it really is hard for me to let it go. I signed up here to learn about it before buying and to talk to others. First posted in Oct '15, ordered a month later and didn't get my TH until March '16. I had around 150 posts before I even got the car. It wasn't until after I got it that I started having all the problems and I didn't come on here after the first service engine and start up a storm. That didn't come till after it came on multiple times. I didn't join here to end up complaining about the renegade, I truly wanted to have this car till it died, which is why I purchased the maxcare lifetime warranty. Does me zero good now and wasted money. I'm not trying to have any hate their Renegade, but you come on here and defend it as if you want everyone to love theirs and no one has a right to complain or say anything bad. We're all babies and Wah wahhhers if we have an issue that can't get resolved.

@Kimberly Renegade Obsses You had what issue? A backup camera issue is barely relateable to someone having an EVIC that won't turn off and results in a dead battery, leaving them stranded. We are all adults, I assume, even if some don't act like it, and consumers. You won't find many items to buy without a few 1 star reviews or bad reports, but you read the review and measure the odds. The persons gripe wasn't bogus. I will agree they should have given more time and it maybe pre-emptive if it gets fixed and he has no issues after that and comes to love his vehicle, but they obviously wrote it while being fired up because of it.

@elf883 Great help. Turn around and go back to the dealer and hand them the keys. Dead car means you aren't going anywhere and I highly doubt anything would be that easy to just get out of a new car buy over an issue that's only happened once. You compare someone having a dead car to people who complain after going from a sports car to a SUV!? So that's like going to a car that runs sometimes and other times is dead. Having problems with the car is no where near the same as complaining about the way the car handles. It's a FIAT. I refuse to call this a Jeep anymore.

Just getting around to reading this thread again and got all fired up again. I don't know how any of us reporting problems turns into we want you all to hate your renegades? We post a problem and complain when something can't get fixed on OUR car. How that translates to you all should hate your car too is beyond me. We come here looking for help or to share out experiences, good or bad, but you only want to hear the good.
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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 09:29 AM
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Strange thing is test reviews buy the so called pros always rate the renegade 3star yet owners in the uk always rate them 4+star out of 5.
What you have to remember is it's you the consumer that wanted all the extra electronics that go wrong from time to time .dont just blame jeep if you dig deep you will find there all the same just you don't have one of there's that's playing up.strange how people tell you the bad things in life but very few tell you the good .hey I might be on here next month slagging my new renegade off or I might have been slagging my new mokka x off etc if I had bought one of the other brands.i would like to see how many customers are happy after there sh**s been sorted out ? Yes it does spoil the new car thing but know one sets out to pi** you off the car firms don't want it it cost them a fortune it's just that good old fashioned bad luck
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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:27 AM
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@tazzel I could care less what everyone else thinks of their renegades. I really don't want anyone to hate theirs. I've said it time and time again, I like sooo many things about my renegade, it really is hard for me to let it go. I signed up here to learn about it before buying and to talk to others. First posted in Oct '15, ordered a month later and didn't get my TH until March '16. I had around 150 posts before I even got the car. It wasn't until after I got it that I started having all the problems and I didn't come on here after the first service engine and start up a storm. That didn't come till after it came on multiple times. I didn't join here to end up complaining about the renegade, I truly wanted to have this car till it died, which is why I purchased the maxcare lifetime warranty. Does me zero good now and wasted money. I'm not trying to have any hate their Renegade, but you come on here and defend it as if you want everyone to love theirs and no one has a right to complain or say anything bad. We're all babies and Wah wahhhers if we have an issue that can't get resolved.




I would check into getting you money back on this. I was told at the time of purchasing my Renegade, when the sales guy was trying so desperately to have me buy additional warranties that if you sold or traded in your Vehicle before these extended warranties and care packages expired you could be reimbursed for the time not used. Of course that's what the sales guy said, not sure how true it might be but it is worth looking into.
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Originally Posted by tazzel View Post
I would check into getting you money back on this. I was told at the time of purchasing my Renegade, when the sales guy was trying so desperately to have me buy additional warranties that if you sold or traded in your Vehicle before these extended warranties and care packages expired you could be reimbursed for the time not used. Of course that's what the sales guy said, not sure how true it might be but it is worth looking into.
I have checked and I can get some of it back, but since I never got out of the manufacturer's warranty, I say it's a waste of money since I can't get it all back. I'm trying to see if they will allow me to transfer it to the new vehicle I get. If I ever get one... Stericycle, working on behalf of FCA, is absolutely horrible. If you want to look them up, they were called Impartial Services Group before they changed names. I'm now on my 3rd Stericycle rep in as many weeks. First one was gone before I ever talked to her, second one is apparently changing departments, and I haven't talked to or heard from the 3rd one yet.
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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Crafty42 View Post
@nytq This is the first vehicle I've ever purchased and had problems with that have gone this far for FCA to offer a buy back before I file Lemon Law. I don't think I qualify for this black cloud, not that you said I did. I measured the bad reviews with the good and made the same judgement beforehand. More people come to complain than come to praise, and went with it anyway. A "mere few" might be right in that 1 in every 77,000 FIATs have a lemon reported, but compared to 1 in 11.5 million Toyotas, I'd say there's a problem. And let's be honest, this is more FIAT than Jeep.

Read:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...emon-list.html

You will note that FIAT is 1: 77k A large source of FIAT problems is the 500L, which is built in zastava by the folks who brought us the Yugo.

RAM is 1:856k
chrysler is 1:596k
Jeep is 1:131k

I'll note subaru is 1:260k and is regarded as a reliable brand. I'll also note that Jeep's rate for warranty incidents with new cars is 1.81 per vehicle compared to subaru's 1.66 (toyota is 1.13 by the way). Toyota is only a bit better than all the rest but it's rate of lemons is almost 1/5th the next best brand which is honda at 1.26 per vehicle. The message there is not that that lemnon rate tells you anything about vehicle reliability. What it tells you about is how long it takes a given brand to get fixed.

If you look at the pattern even the happy people have on this board, you will note that getting stuff fixed is seldom done in one visit, even for a known problem.

I will also point out as I have in the past that the FCA dealer network is kind of crap. There is no way I would buy any of them if I didn't have the ability to shop around for service from multiple dealers. Remember, lemons are by definition not about a large number of problems, but about a vehicle being laid up for a significant number of hours and/or a failure to fix a single problem. FCA is also more willing than other makes to ship a vehicle with beta quality firmware on it. When you combine that with a sketchy dealer network, you have a situation that may require some significant effort to get what you want out of it. I think a number of unhappy buyers have considered the vehicle and the overall engineering in it vs. the gripes, but have not necessarily considered the context in which they are buying the vehicle. That includes their own temperament.

As I mentioned above, subaru is regarded as reliable. However, it is #1 1 in reliability and has more lemons than chrysler vehicles or even dodge. It also has a defect rate higher than chrysler. So why aren't they regarded as total POSs? Why isn't their reputation crumbling? Why is their lemon rate so high?

1) They are EXTREMELY conservative about their electronics. Extremely. That means that regardless of the quality of their service center staff at any given dealership, there is not a lot of complex system debugging involving software interactions with other software. FCA's software pipeline would give subaru engineers an aneurysm.

2) They allow a pretty significant range of leeway on warranty claims. A dealer can give pretty good service without contacting the mother ship and rely on getting compensated for it.

3) When you hit the edge of that leeway, their answer is largely GTFO. You can try to reason with them, you can bring a whole forum with you, you can have multiple dealers advocate on your behalf. It's a hard line and the dealer won't get paid if they do the work. You WILL have to bring the lawyers into it.

4) Subaru has a LOT more places selling them than when I bought mine. Most of those places it's an add on brand for sales, and they have little to no subaru trained service personnel. #1 helps that be something other than a total nightmare, but it's a big chunk of why you wee their reputation declining and more lemons. When I bought mine, there were 4 delaers within an hour drive, and only 2 competent service centers. Now there are seven... and only two competent service centers.

5) On the up side, due to their engineering practices, they have a pretty functional parts supply network. Combine this with #1 and it goes a long way to enabling a R&R mentality on warranty claims that actually works at fixing a problem.

Why do FCA brands suffer?

1) Ship it in BETA baby! Look at how their brands break down on the various lists. High margin, vicious competition, and electronics that are somewhat behind the curve = RAM, and RAM does well. Less defects, and less repeat offenders with impossible diagnostics. Jeep on the other hand is composed primarily of complex designs both mechanically and electronically, and has thinner margins. Buying into the beta culture means that you are going to see more dealer visits in general, and even MORE if your vehicle is towards the complex end of their offerings. And god forbid you buy FIAT where they are low margin, low price, more complex, AND almost 100% add on brands without trained staff.

2) Get bad dealers and then fight with them. From the days of the FCA network being the Mopar network, it's been less than good. It has in fact been the worst at several points. FCA occupies a fairly adversarial role in that relationship. The upside is that you have access to customer advocacy you don't with other brands. The downside is even good dealers are reluctant to try and fix stuff without approval form the mother ship. Regardless of this fact helping or hurting you at any given moment, it slows down the process meaning it takes longer to fix it.

3) FCA compensates for warranty work a bit worse than most dealers.

4) Add up 1-3 and you get an inescapable pattern of behavior, and that is to make the first pass at any given problem to patch the firmware and try it now(tm). This allows the dealership to push more customers through, it requires zero arguing over compensation and time spent, it cna be done by a semi-trained monkey, so it's not am oney pit, and by making you do this first and come back later, it reduces the chances they will burn uncompensated hours diagnosing a problem while maximizing their income off of a warranty claim. Additionally, for the customer centric dealers, it makes it look like they are doing something for you.

5) aggravating all of this is a fairly starved parts supply network.

When you look at an FCA product, you have to ask yourself if what it is is something they can actually engineer to completion. Then you have to ask yourself if you are able and willing to navigate the stormy waters of FCA dealerships to that completion.

In my case, I have 11 dealers in an hour drive at least one of which has pleasant competent staff (because they also service subarus there too and I had used them before). The closest one also turned out to be pretty competent, but they are also aware of FCA's weaknesses. They really didn't order most of the fancy bells and whistles on their initial renegade inventory. Thanks to that, I haven't had to deal with a lot of the problems others have had, and they have had less hassles getting to know the vehicle from a service perspective.


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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raz-0 View Post
You will note that FIAT is 1: 77k A large source of FIAT problems is the 500L, which is built in zastava by the folks who brought us the Yugo.

RAM is 1:856k
chrysler is 1:596k
Jeep is 1:131k

I'll note subaru is 1:260k and is regarded as a reliable brand. I'll also note that Jeep's rate for warranty incidents with new cars is 1.81 per vehicle compared to subaru's 1.66 (toyota is 1.13 by the way). Toyota is only a bit better than all the rest but it's rate of lemons is almost 1/5th the next best brand which is honda at 1.26 per vehicle. The message there is not that that lemnon rate tells you anything about vehicle reliability. What it tells you about is how long it takes a given brand to get fixed.

If you look at the pattern even the happy people have on this board, you will note that getting stuff fixed is seldom done in one visit, even for a known problem.

I will also point out as I have in the past that the FCA dealer network is kind of crap. There is no way I would buy any of them if I didn't have the ability to shop around for service from multiple dealers. Remember, lemons are by definition not about a large number of problems, but about a vehicle being laid up for a significant number of hours and/or a failure to fix a single problem. FCA is also more willing than other makes to ship a vehicle with beta quality firmware on it. When you combine that with a sketchy dealer network, you have a situation that may require some significant effort to get what you want out of it. I think a number of unhappy buyers have considered the vehicle and the overall engineering in it vs. the gripes, but have not necessarily considered the context in which they are buying the vehicle. That includes their own temperament.

As I mentioned above, subaru is regarded as reliable. However, it is #1 1 in reliability and has more lemons than chrysler vehicles or even dodge. It also has a defect rate higher than chrysler. So why aren't they regarded as total POSs? Why isn't their reputation crumbling? Why is their lemon rate so high?

1) They are EXTREMELY conservative about their electronics. Extremely. That means that regardless of the quality of their service center staff at any given dealership, there is not a lot of complex system debugging involving software interactions with other software. FCA's software pipeline would give subaru engineers an aneurysm.

2) They allow a pretty significant range of leeway on warranty claims. A dealer can give pretty good service without contacting the mother ship and rely on getting compensated for it.

3) When you hit the edge of that leeway, their answer is largely GTFO. You can try to reason with them, you can bring a whole forum with you, you can have multiple dealers advocate on your behalf. It's a hard line and the dealer won't get paid if they do the work. You WILL have to bring the lawyers into it.

4) Subaru has a LOT more places selling them than when I bought mine. Most of those places it's an add on brand for sales, and they have little to no subaru trained service personnel. #1 helps that be something other than a total nightmare, but it's a big chunk of why you wee their reputation declining and more lemons. When I bought mine, there were 4 delaers within an hour drive, and only 2 competent service centers. Now there are seven... and only two competent service centers.

5) On the up side, due to their engineering practices, they have a pretty functional parts supply network. Combine this with #1 and it goes a long way to enabling a R&R mentality on warranty claims that actually works at fixing a problem.

Why do FCA brands suffer?

1) Ship it in BETA baby! Look at how their brands break down on the various lists. High margin, vicious competition, and electronics that are somewhat behind the curve = RAM, and RAM does well. Less defects, and less repeat offenders with impossible diagnostics. Jeep on the other hand is composed primarily of complex designs both mechanically and electronically, and has thinner margins. Buying into the beta culture means that you are going to see more dealer visits in general, and even MORE if your vehicle is towards the complex end of their offerings. And god forbid you buy FIAT where they are low margin, low price, more complex, AND almost 100% add on brands without trained staff.

2) Get bad dealers and then fight with them. From the days of the FCA network being the Mopar network, it's been less than good. It has in fact been the worst at several points. FCA occupies a fairly adversarial role in that relationship. The upside is that you have access to customer advocacy you don't with other brands. The downside is even good dealers are reluctant to try and fix stuff without approval form the mother ship. Regardless of this fact helping or hurting you at any given moment, it slows down the process meaning it takes longer to fix it.

3) FCA compensates for warranty work a bit worse than most dealers.

4) Add up 1-3 and you get an inescapable pattern of behavior, and that is to make the first pass at any given problem to patch the firmware and try it now(tm). This allows the dealership to push more customers through, it requires zero arguing over compensation and time spent, it cna be done by a semi-trained monkey, so it's not am oney pit, and by making you do this first and come back later, it reduces the chances they will burn uncompensated hours diagnosing a problem while maximizing their income off of a warranty claim. Additionally, for the customer centric dealers, it makes it look like they are doing something for you.

5) aggravating all of this is a fairly starved parts supply network.

When you look at an FCA product, you have to ask yourself if what it is is something they can actually engineer to completion. Then you have to ask yourself if you are able and willing to navigate the stormy waters of FCA dealerships to that completion.

In my case, I have 11 dealers in an hour drive at least one of which has pleasant competent staff (because they also service subarus there too and I had used them before). The closest one also turned out to be pretty competent, but they are also aware of FCA's weaknesses. They really didn't order most of the fancy bells and whistles on their initial renegade inventory. Thanks to that, I haven't had to deal with a lot of the problems others have had, and they have had less hassles getting to know the vehicle from a service perspective.
WOW!! So Interesting!, How do you know all this stuff Raz?
What options do you have in your vehicle? As in response to yours not having all the fancy Bells and Whistles? So you are saying they ship their Vehicles with their firmware being in more of its infancy of it's development, thus leaving it to the consumer to keep making trips to the dealer for updates. Resulting in consumers suffering through the glitches and bugs of said software's ability to communicate appropriately with the guts of the car. Have you had to get a lot of updates on your vehicle? I would imagine from some of your earlier posts I have read, you have had pretty smooth sailing thus far... what is your build date? Thanks for all the great Info!!

KIMBERLY
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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Crafty42 View Post
@nytq This is the first vehicle I've ever purchased and had problems with that have gone this far for FCA to offer a buy back before I file Lemon Law. I don't think I qualify for this black cloud, not that you said I did. I measured the bad reviews with the good and made the same judgement beforehand. More people come to complain than come to praise, and went with it anyway. A "mere few" might be right in that 1 in every 77,000 FIATs have a lemon reported, but compared to 1 in 11.5 million Toyotas, I'd say there's a problem. And let's be honest, this is more FIAT than Jeep.

Read:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...emon-list.html

@tazzel I could care less what everyone else thinks of their renegades. I really don't want anyone to hate theirs. I've said it time and time again, I like sooo many things about my renegade, it really is hard for me to let it go. I signed up here to learn about it before buying and to talk to others. First posted in Oct '15, ordered a month later and didn't get my TH until March '16. I had around 150 posts before I even got the car. It wasn't until after I got it that I started having all the problems and I didn't come on here after the first service engine and start up a storm. That didn't come till after it came on multiple times. I didn't join here to end up complaining about the renegade, I truly wanted to have this car till it died, which is why I purchased the maxcare lifetime warranty. Does me zero good now and wasted money. I'm not trying to have any hate their Renegade, but you come on here and defend it as if you want everyone to love theirs and no one has a right to complain or say anything bad. We're all babies and Wah wahhhers if we have an issue that can't get resolved.

@Kimberly Renegade Obsses You had what issue? A backup camera issue is barely relateable to someone having an EVIC that won't turn off and results in a dead battery, leaving them stranded. We are all adults, I assume, even if some don't act like it, and consumers. You won't find many items to buy without a few 1 star reviews or bad reports, but you read the review and measure the odds. The persons gripe wasn't bogus. I will agree they should have given more time and it maybe pre-emptive if it gets fixed and he has no issues after that and comes to love his vehicle, but they obviously wrote it while being fired up because of it.

@elf883 Great help. Turn around and go back to the dealer and hand them the keys. Dead car means you aren't going anywhere and I highly doubt anything would be that easy to just get out of a new car buy over an issue that's only happened once. You compare someone having a dead car to people who complain after going from a sports car to a SUV!? So that's like going to a car that runs sometimes and other times is dead. Having problems with the car is no where near the same as complaining about the way the car handles. It's a FIAT. I refuse to call this a Jeep anymore.

Just getting around to reading this thread again and got all fired up again. I don't know how any of us reporting problems turns into we want you all to hate your renegades? We post a problem and complain when something can't get fixed on OUR car. How that translates to you all should hate your car too is beyond me. We come here looking for help or to share out experiences, good or bad, but you only want to hear the good.
My problem was more than that, it started as my back up camera freezing, but the real issue was that my infotainment screen would not go off, even when I shut the car off, I was very worried about the battery getting drained. Thank goodness I have this forum, as I logged on and got an instant answer, a member responded immediately saying that everyone was having a similar issue that day and it turned out fine. Seems as if you like to mince my words when it benefits your stance...
But honestly, I feel no need to keep going back and forth with you on this, I really am sorry that you are having such difficulty with your Jeep, and I am really hoping that it all works out in your favor in the end, I know it s no fun! And I would be so terribly upset as well.
To me I just thought this review seemed quite suspicious. What person do you know, that goes through the grueling process of car shopping, test drives, dealer visits, hours and hours spent researching and comparing options and models, finally selecting a car that fits the bill, and then being really excited about it. It is such a fun and exciting thing in life, to decide on a brand new car, then one waits for all the red tape to get worked out, and for it to be ready for delivery. Then you pick it up and drive a few miles in the next day or 2.....then right away there is a software problem with a screen and they declare the car a total piece of Junk ( BTW- the reviewer said it made his battery get low, but not drained and didn't say he was stranded)... whole story seems very far fetched to me. I still think its not a true review, and we really will never know if it is or isn't. My point was, either way, it is not a very good evaluation of the reliability or quality of the car. And those kind of reviews pull the numbers down and it becomes an inaccurate way to look at the reputation of the vehicle. So I said thats Bogus! Still think the same thing! So, for whatever its worth... that is where I am coming from, surely not trying to diminish your experience or anyone else that is having real issues here.

KIMBERLY

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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 08:07 PM
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WOW!! So Interesting!, How do you know all this stuff Raz?
What options do you have in your vehicle? As in response to yours not having all the fancy Bells and Whistles? So you are saying they ship their Vehicles with their firmware being in more of its infancy of it's development, thus leaving it to the consumer to keep making trips to the dealer for updates. Resulting in consumers suffering through the glitches and bugs of said software's ability to communicate appropriately with the guts of the car. Have you had to get a lot of updates on your vehicle? I would imagine from some of your earlier posts I have read, you have had pretty smooth sailing thus far... what is your build date? Thanks for all the great Info!!

I'm about 6 updates deep on the tcm alone. Even more on the bcm. At least one on the steering module, and another half dozen plus mystery updates.

Mine is a 2015 trailhawk. The only option was the 9 speaker audio upgrade.

This means there's probably another dozen I haven't had to deal with.

That said, I only had two problems.

1) the tcm improbable sensor value bug sending me into limp mode. This was a firmware bug.

2) the 30mph noise that still isn't sorted out.

Well three depending on how you look at it. One of the tcm updates made it occasionally shift like someone learning stick. One of the updates was specifically due to me asking if they had one for the crap shifting the last fix caused.

There are upsides and down sides to this. They are more willing to revise something firmware based that is simply unpopular rather than broken. The downsides are obvious.


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