Another beach outing - Jeep Renegade Forum
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Another beach outing

I was in the Carova area of North Carolina over the weekend.

As in the past, I used "snow" mode and had tires at 18 PSI. When I put it in "sand" mode it was consistently turning at least 3K RPMs. In snow mode RPMs were low 2K and sometimes below.

I kept it in snow mode, because it seemed do just fine and not be working as hard. Does this make sense, or should I use sand mode and let the engine rev higher?

Here is a video of me coming back onto the beach near milepost 22. You can see the sand is quite soft and dry at this spot.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/dEmCDwLUW1ygvhAy7
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 02:40 PM
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Sometimes more revs will help in deeper/softer sand. I haven't driven a lot on the beach with the Renegade but when I did I had it in sand mode, never thought of trying snow. Sand mode will turn off traction control, snow mode won't. If I get a permit this fall I will give it a try to see how it goes. Our sand can be deep in spots but I think it is a little more granular here and not quite so soft or powdery, although there are some spots that are. There is one beach that you have to drive on a trail behind the beach until you near the end, and the trail can be wicked. I haven't tried the Renegade on it.

Thanks for the video.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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Sometimes more revs will help in deeper/softer sand. I haven't driven a lot on the beach with the Renegade but when I did I had it in sand mode, never thought of trying snow. Sand mode will turn off traction control, snow mode won't. ....
I did not realize that sand mode turns off traction control. I couldn't tell much difference in forward motion in either mode, just that the engine was revving higher in sand mode.

Trans temp got up to 192F on the beach (was running at 174F on the pavement). That info display is pretty cool.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-15-2018, 02:44 PM
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We took Luigi, our 2018 Altitude to Long beach Wa. this weekend. Only had 850 miles on it at the time. Put it in sand mode and the Dynamic steering Torque service light and TSC off light came on. Freaked me out. First new vehicle, first time off road with it. About400 yards down the beach. Turned around back to terrafirma to read the owners manual.3 start cycles and 30mph on pavement the lights went off and had no stored messages. Didn't like the high RPMs. Good to know. Next time will try snow or mud mode.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-19-2018, 03:21 AM
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I did not realize that sand mode turns off traction control. I couldn't tell much difference in forward motion in either mode, just that the engine was revving higher in sand mode.

Trans temp got up to 192F on the beach (was running at 174F on the pavement). That info display is pretty cool.
It doesn't. There is no way to turn off traction control. When you hit the traction control button is LESSENS it's intrusion, it does NOT turn it completely off (neither do any of the AWD "modes"). This is something manufacturers are (unfortunately) gravitating towards (for litigious reasons). Computer (safety nannies) are here to stay, and you're not turning them off (despite, yet another of, Jeeps fake "buttons").

ETA: I should clarify my last statement ("fake buttons") so people don't pile on the hate.
Jeep (in the Renegade) puts a "4x4" badge on it. It is not. It's AWD that uses Torque Vectoring (the definition of AWD).
Jeep puts a "4 LOW" button in the TH. It is NOT "4 LOW", it is nothing more than a 1st gear hold for the auto trans (which is why TH is only available with auto trans).
Jeep puts a "4 LOCK" button on all Renegades. It is NOT a "4 LOCK", it simply locks the rear driveshaft to the front... except (unlike traditional rear ends) the Renny rear axle is a dual clutch computer controlled unit that will NOT engage either rear wheel unless slip is detected at the front (again... AWD. Not 4x4). What does this serve?.. According to GKN (who makes the system for Jeep) it reduces lock up time WHEN the system decides to send power to the rear... by a millisecond (vs the 3 millisecond it would otherwise in "auto" mode). It's Jeep's play on words. Most think a locking center diff means 50/50 power front/rear (THAT is a 4x4). But Jeeps fails to tell you that while it may lock UP to 50/50 (driveshaft ONLY).. NONE of the power is transferred to EITHER rear wheel until the system senses spin at the front. NONE. ZILCH. The "lock" button basically serves zero function other than adding a misleading technicality which allows Jeep to call this a "4x4" (even though it functions as all AWD's out there). Clever mismarketing on Jeeps behalf.
Ah yes.. and the "traction control button". Yep, you guessed it... it doesn't do that. It just tells the computer to "ease up" on the control, but does NOT eliminate it.
It's very strange... Jeep makes the most hard core 4x4 system there is (in the Wrangler Rubicon) yet also has VERY mild systems that they try to play up (with fake and misleading terms that is bordering on false representation/claims) as similar.
Ok.. rant over I just wanted to explain my statement
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-19-2018, 07:14 AM
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don't want to go off topic since this is about a beach outing, but although the traction control button doesn't turn it 100% off, it is EXTREMELY helpful for sand/mud/snow conditions as it has gotten me unstuck alot of times. Also i agree a millisecond is just that... a millisecond... but it still makes a difference on how fast the awd/4x4 system responds when it detects slip, i.e. a steep hill climb or a muddy curve.


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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-19-2018, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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... NONE of the power is transferred to EITHER rear wheel until the system senses spin at the front. NONE. ZILCH. ...
Interesting info.

Under what conditions does it cut power to the rear once it has sensed slippage and sent it there?

Seems like it could be "thrashing" between power and no power under certain slippery conditions (like ice and sand).
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-21-2018, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Maverick365 View Post
It doesn't. There is no way to turn off traction control. When you hit the traction control button is LESSENS it's intrusion, it does NOT turn it completely off (neither do any of the AWD "modes"). This is something manufacturers are (unfortunately) gravitating towards (for litigious reasons). Computer (safety nannies) are here to stay, and you're not turning them off (despite, yet another of, Jeeps fake "buttons").

ETA: I should clarify my last statement ("fake buttons") so people don't pile on the hate.
Jeep (in the Renegade) puts a "4x4" badge on it. It is not. It's AWD that uses Torque Vectoring (the definition of AWD).
Jeep puts a "4 LOW" button in the TH. It is NOT "4 LOW", it is nothing more than a 1st gear hold for the auto trans (which is why TH is only available with auto trans).
Jeep puts a "4 LOCK" button on all Renegades. It is NOT a "4 LOCK", it simply locks the rear driveshaft to the front... except (unlike traditional rear ends) the Renny rear axle is a dual clutch computer controlled unit that will NOT engage either rear wheel unless slip is detected at the front (again... AWD. Not 4x4). What does this serve?.. According to GKN (who makes the system for Jeep) it reduces lock up time WHEN the system decides to send power to the rear... by a millisecond (vs the 3 millisecond it would otherwise in "auto" mode). It's Jeep's play on words. Most think a locking center diff means 50/50 power front/rear (THAT is a 4x4). But Jeeps fails to tell you that while it may lock UP to 50/50 (driveshaft ONLY).. NONE of the power is transferred to EITHER rear wheel until the system senses spin at the front. NONE. ZILCH. The "lock" button basically serves zero function other than adding a misleading technicality which allows Jeep to call this a "4x4" (even though it functions as all AWD's out there). Clever mismarketing on Jeeps behalf.
Ah yes.. and the "traction control button". Yep, you guessed it... it doesn't do that. It just tells the computer to "ease up" on the control, but does NOT eliminate it.
It's very strange... Jeep makes the most hard core 4x4 system there is (in the Wrangler Rubicon) yet also has VERY mild systems that they try to play up (with fake and misleading terms that is bordering on false representation/claims) as similar.
Ok.. rant over I just wanted to explain my statement
Maverick, you are wrong in some of your statements:

1) "NONE of the power is transferred to EITHER rear wheel until the system senses spin at the front. NONE." That is False. The Renegade uses a 2nd generation AWD system that uses preemtively engages the rear axle under certain conditions: i) everytime the vehicle stops it engages the rear axle to the launch. ii) if there is a frozen temperature and below 60km/h, when you remove the feet from the accelerator, it engages the rear wheels to ensure that the engine braking is used by the 4 wheels - very useful on snow or ici conditions. iii) if the road is wet (it asumes it if the windshield wipers are on) and below 60km/h, when you remove the feet from the accelerator, it engages the rear wheels to ensure that the engine braking is used by the 4 wheels - very useful on wet roads. ......... and yes, you are wright... it also engages the rear wheels anytime it feels slippage on the front.

2) ""Jeep (in the Renegade) puts a "4x4" badge on it. It is not."" There is no International or National Standard that technicaly defines what is 4x4. The Renegade has 4 weels, and can put power on the 4 (4x4). On systems like the Wrangler, some people call it 4x4 (can also be misleading) were on the road it is only 4x2 because it is a part-time system, and not a full time system. JEEP is very clear explaining to the clients their 14 different transmissions/drivetrains
https://www.jeep.com/4x4.html (please read all the page and follow the links for each system)
For those who don't like to read, JEEP produces nice informative videos:
https://youtu.be/T7F6xfcoFwQ

3) " Jeep puts a "4 LOW" button in the TH. It is NOT "4 LOW" " The Renegade TH has a Crawl Ratio of 20:1. This is already a low range, considering that there is not any vehicle in Hi setting that can provide such a LOW gearing. Or, all the other vehicles with transfer case, have a higher crawl ratio (in Hi range) that the Renegade TH in 4LOW... so it is called LOW. Again, there is no International or National Standard that technically defines what is Low range. JEEP consider it to be 20:1 or more and clearly states this value on their web page and on the brochures (you know that your crawl ratio is 20:1 and not 73:1 - it is on the brochures!).

4) " When you hit the traction control button is LESSENS it's intrusion, it does NOT turn it completely off." You are wright. Because of safety regulations, they can't have a button that you press and then you fail a safety certification test like the "moose" test (at least in Europe).

My point is that JEEP is the automaker that better informs their clients about the drivetrain. People just have to spend time reading and studyind the systems... each one of them:

- Quadra-Drive® II 4x4 System with Rear Electronic Limited-Slip Differential
- Quadra-Trac I® 4x4 System
- Quadra-Trac II® 4x4 System
- Quadra-Trac® SRT® 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive Low 4x4 System
- Command-Trac® 4x4 System
- Rock-Trac® 4x4 System
- Command-Trac® 4x4 System
- Rock-Trac® 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive I 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive II 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive Lock 4x4 System

For those that go to the dealer... like the body color... the cup holders.... and buy a car because of the look and it says 4x4..... well, nowadays it is not so easy, you have to read and study if you want to be full aware on what you are getting. I did it, and I looked also to the Nissan, Toyota, Suzuki and Land Rover systems. I spent a lot of time...but it worth.

Now, regarding the topic of this thread, for SAND, usually SAND should be better because it never cuts engine power (unlike ROCK or SNOW). I believe that in some sand types, maybe SNOW mode works well, but if you are climbing a SAND dune with lose and deep sand... you will need SAND mode because SNOW mode at some point cuts engine power when there is to much sleep ans speed.

Best regards,
Bruno.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-26-2018, 12:41 AM
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Maverick, you are wrong in some of your statements:

1) "NONE of the power is transferred to EITHER rear wheel until the system senses spin at the front. NONE." That is False. The Renegade uses a 2nd generation AWD system that uses preemtively engages the rear axle under certain conditions: i) everytime the vehicle stops it engages the rear axle to the launch. ii) if there is a frozen temperature and below 60km/h, when you remove the feet from the accelerator, it engages the rear wheels to ensure that the engine braking is used by the 4 wheels - very useful on snow or ici conditions. iii) if the road is wet (it asumes it if the windshield wipers are on) and below 60km/h, when you remove the feet from the accelerator, it engages the rear wheels to ensure that the engine braking is used by the 4 wheels - very useful on wet roads. ......... and yes, you are wright... it also engages the rear wheels anytime it feels slippage on the front.

2) ""Jeep (in the Renegade) puts a "4x4" badge on it. It is not."" There is no International or National Standard that technicaly defines what is 4x4. The Renegade has 4 weels, and can put power on the 4 (4x4). On systems like the Wrangler, some people call it 4x4 (can also be misleading) were on the road it is only 4x2 because it is a part-time system, and not a full time system. JEEP is very clear explaining to the clients their 14 different transmissions/drivetrains
https://www.jeep.com/4x4.html (please read all the page and follow the links for each system)
For those who don't like to read, JEEP produces nice informative videos:
https://youtu.be/T7F6xfcoFwQ

3) " Jeep puts a "4 LOW" button in the TH. It is NOT "4 LOW" " The Renegade TH has a Crawl Ratio of 20:1. This is already a low range, considering that there is not any vehicle in Hi setting that can provide such a LOW gearing. Or, all the other vehicles with transfer case, have a higher crawl ratio (in Hi range) that the Renegade TH in 4LOW... so it is called LOW. Again, there is no International or National Standard that technically defines what is Low range. JEEP consider it to be 20:1 or more and clearly states this value on their web page and on the brochures (you know that your crawl ratio is 20:1 and not 73:1 - it is on the brochures!).

4) " When you hit the traction control button is LESSENS it's intrusion, it does NOT turn it completely off." You are wright. Because of safety regulations, they can't have a button that you press and then you fail a safety certification test like the "moose" test (at least in Europe).

My point is that JEEP is the automaker that better informs their clients about the drivetrain. People just have to spend time reading and studyind the systems... each one of them:

- Quadra-Drive® II 4x4 System with Rear Electronic Limited-Slip Differential
- Quadra-Trac I® 4x4 System
- Quadra-Trac II® 4x4 System
- Quadra-Trac® SRT® 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive Low 4x4 System
- Command-Trac® 4x4 System
- Rock-Trac® 4x4 System
- Command-Trac® 4x4 System
- Rock-Trac® 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive I 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive II 4x4 System
- Jeep® Active Drive Lock 4x4 System

For those that go to the dealer... like the body color... the cup holders.... and buy a car because of the look and it says 4x4..... well, nowadays it is not so easy, you have to read and study if you want to be full aware on what you are getting. I did it, and I looked also to the Nissan, Toyota, Suzuki and Land Rover systems. I spent a lot of time...but it worth.

Now, regarding the topic of this thread, for SAND, usually SAND should be better because it never cuts engine power (unlike ROCK or SNOW). I believe that in some sand types, maybe SNOW mode works well, but if you are climbing a SAND dune with lose and deep sand... you will need SAND mode because SNOW mode at some point cuts engine power when there is to much sleep ans speed.

Best regards,
Bruno.
No, you have some things incorrect.
There is a clear and distinct difference between "4x4" and "AWD". "4x4" does not mean being able to send power to all 4 wheels, it means (and always has) being able to LOCK front/rear drivelines 50/50. "AWD" means (and always has) being ABLE to send power to any of the 4 wheels (which does NOT translate to 50/50 front/rear).
Nowhere in Jeeps literature does it clearly state that pushing the "lock" button only locks the rear driveshaft.... but NOT necessarily engage the rear axles (something that was always a given... until this day and age of dual wet clutch, disengaging, rear ends).
I suggest you research a bit more, and go to GKN's website (as THEY are the actual manufacturer of the Renegade (and now compass) AWD system. They explain it quite clearly, unlike Jeep).
In other words... Jeep Renegades AWD system does not react to the "lock" button. The rear axle engagements are STILL controlled by the software. So pushing the "lock" button does nothing more than engage the rear driveshaft... it does NOT engage either of the rear wheels (until the software decides to do so... upon slippage and some various other conditions that you did mention).
My point was that AWD systems use "Torque vectoring" (fancy way of saying "when slip is detected, it will variously move toque to other wheels until the vehicle is moving again").
This is why you'll not see rock crawlers with AWD, as AWD NEEDS slip to move power. Slip is not an issue on road, as there is a hard surface underneath, so moving power works great here. Off road... it is NOT a great solution, as tire slip means digging (soft dirt, gravel, sand, etc). Which means one tire is digging a hole, so whatever tire power THEN gets moved to has to also combat THAT issue as well as find traction itself.
An Off roader prefers "slow and STEADY traction". And AWD does not work that way, it cannot (as slip is required for it to KNOW it needs traction elsewhere... which at that point, you're all ready creating another issue). Please research the difference of 4x4 and AWD, the pro's and con's, and please research the actual technology/componentry/manufacture (and their own assessment/explanation) of the Jeep Renegade (because Jeep is NOT giving it to you). I've already read all the stuff you posted (by Jeep), which tells me nothing. That's why I had to do serious research and find out for myself (and I've since told you where to find it. Strait from the actual manufacturers mouth... not Jeep's).
"Lock" button: fake.

So... "low range". I'll admit, it's fairly low for this type of vehicle. But again... you seem unaware of technical terms. "4 Low" has (and still does) mean a LOWER gear than the standard drive gears. Is this that? No. It is simply 1st gear of the automatic. This can also be accomplish via the auto stick, so the button is pointless.
This is Jeeps playing with the term "LOW RANGE" (the original term). Manufacturers have, for years, just shortened it to "4 LOW". But... now jeep wants to "re term" it to mean "the lowest standard gear"... otherwise known as "1st gear" to the rest of us.
"4 LOW" button: fake.

The only reason why buyers should have to research if a vehicle really IS what it is badged as is because people keep making excuses for (well it kinda sorta, remotely, is) it and giving the brand a pass on using said terms. NO, call them out on it, make it public, and get them in line. What they do is known as "fudging the labels a bit" and Jeep has been called out on this MANY times on many of their non Wrangler vehicles. Jeep will ride that wave of "well I THOUGHT was..." for as long as you let them. Jeep is a master at being vague and implying (while not saying) it's something that it isn't.
If Jeep were being totally forthcoming/honest, the Renegade would have:
AWD on it instead of "4x4"
No "lock" button (as it does nothing to GET power to the rear tires). Auto does the same thing.
No "4 LOW" button (this can be accomplished via the auto stick, and it's NOT low, it's 1st NORMAL gear).
And keep the "modes" (the only that IS real. It really does recalibrate quite a bit).

…. which... would mirror the 500x. Oh, BTW, the 500x has the same system/components (but does not have the "modes" variable selector). Surprise!! (but true)

I'm no Jeep hater. I have a '17 Renny TH that I love very much (for the AWD that it is).
I come from a DEEPLY Jeep family and we've owned many before (Gladiator, Commanche, Wagoneer, CJ-7, TJ, XJ's (2), YJ, and currently my Renny, a '08 GC, and a '14 Cherokee).
Trust me... I'm more familiar with Jeeps "4x4" systems than probably most on here (as well as seriously off roading them). No hate for Jeep here. But their recent trend of slapping "4x4" (as well as all the fake buttons) on AWD models (nothing wrong with AWD, for an AWD purpose) is getting under my skin (as well as their completely gray explanations of them).

This site never gives me enough time to "edit" so I'll post a separate post with GKN's exact explanation of this system for anyone that doubts me (and has gobbled up the Jeep coolaid).
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-26-2018, 01:54 AM
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The GKN page is (mysteriously) gone now, despite my having posted it on this forum numerous times (and I'm sure many have already seen it). Gee... wonder why? (*cough*… Jeep … *cough*).
They also make the same system for the new Compass, however (same as the 500x, same as the Renegade and Renegade TH). Here is an offroad review of that system (which I feel is closer to reality than many other non technical reviews):


This review perfectly shows why AWD systems are not anywhere near the capability of a "4x4" system (even without lockers), and how AWD will dig you into a hole in loose stuff. (nice touch that he also mentions the "fake" buttons and how vehicles in this class tend to "fudge" their capabilities with misleading labels/advertising, as well as call Jeep out on the "not real" low range). Maybe Jeep can get that guy to remove THAT page too?

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