Off Road modes settings non Trailhawk? - Page 2 - Jeep Renegade Forum
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-14-2018, 11:19 PM
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An interesting video which I didn't understand a word he said . I would love to see him do that course again with some AT tires. The Renegade had paddle shifters, must be another difference Europe/US. Thanks for posting.

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-15-2018, 02:36 AM
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Hi Maverick,
Thank's for share this video showing a very good testing. I also appreciate your comments and additional information regarding "pros and cons" of 4x4 and AWD. They are useful to keep people/drivers informed about their vehicle capabilities and limitations. I just would like to share some comments on that great video with the Renegade on the rollers:

- The Renegade took some time and well spin, but was able to transfer power to the only/unique wheel with traction, and the other 3 with no/zero traction. This is better than the majority of the SUV/Crossovers. Also, many of the true 4x4 from the 80's and 90's would fail when only one wheel has traction, because most/many of them only have a center diff locker (no front or rear locker).

Yes, that's correct. An AWD CAN have an advantage (in limited situations) to 4x4 off road. However, that's against an open differential 4x4 system (which no serious off roader uses). Most serious off roader add at least one locking (or limited slip) differential.
Basically.. in stock trim, sure an AWD COULD have an edge (that's if the AWD system doesn't get over protective and clamp down on the brakes to save itself, since they are designed for light torque loads) over a bone stock base 4x4 system, but that buy a 4x4 for off road purposes usually also opt to add a limited slip or (better) lockers.
There is zero argument that an AWD excels (over a 4x4) ON road. On road (hard under surface), an AWD reigns supreme as moving power is advantageous for that (4x4's have a tendency to swap ends in snow, unless they have TC/ESC).
For the most part, though.. AWD suffers (off road) in that it doesn't keep the "slow and steady" mantra (it waits for slip, THEN has to figure things out), it uses the brakes to move power (this robs power, will entirely halt movement, and compounds the situation as now you have to power your way out of a self dug hole and the wheels that could possibly do it are now being "braked"), and the #1 issue.. the parts are not designed to handle high torque situations (thus the systems are over protective and will "brake" on all 4 corners to protect it's parts WAY to quickly/easily, thus you sit there).
Jeep is TRYING real hard to bridge that gap between AWD and part time 4x4... but this isn't it (they are opposing methods that I can't see EVER being combined).
What we'd all really like is a hard core (parts that can handle off road situations) 4x4 system that WE can control (rather than a fully automated AWD, or a simply locked 4x4 system). Jeep IS getting closer... there is a new "full time/part time" 4x4 system available on the Wrangler Sahara THIS year (merger of both systems). We'll see how that plays out. If it does well, maybe it will trickle down to other vehicles in their line up? One can hope!
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-17-2018, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, that's correct. An AWD CAN have an advantage (in limited situations) to 4x4 off road. However, that's against an open differential 4x4 system (which no serious off roader uses). Most serious off roader add at least one locking (or limited slip) differential.
Basically.. in stock trim, sure an AWD COULD have an edge (that's if the AWD system doesn't get over protective and clamp down on the brakes to save itself, since they are designed for light torque loads) over a bone stock base 4x4 system, but that buy a 4x4 for off road purposes usually also opt to add a limited slip or (better) lockers.
There is zero argument that an AWD excels (over a 4x4) ON road. On road (hard under surface), an AWD reigns supreme as moving power is advantageous for that (4x4's have a tendency to swap ends in snow, unless they have TC/ESC).
For the most part, though.. AWD suffers (off road) in that it doesn't keep the "slow and steady" mantra (it waits for slip, THEN has to figure things out), it uses the brakes to move power (this robs power, will entirely halt movement, and compounds the situation as now you have to power your way out of a self dug hole and the wheels that could possibly do it are now being "braked"), and the #1 issue.. the parts are not designed to handle high torque situations (thus the systems are over protective and will "brake" on all 4 corners to protect it's parts WAY to quickly/easily, thus you sit there).
Jeep is TRYING real hard to bridge that gap between AWD and part time 4x4... but this isn't it (they are opposing methods that I can't see EVER being combined).
What we'd all really like is a hard core (parts that can handle off road situations) 4x4 system that WE can control (rather than a fully automated AWD, or a simply locked 4x4 system). Jeep IS getting closer... there is a new "full time/part time" 4x4 system available on the Wrangler Sahara THIS year (merger of both systems). We'll see how that plays out. If it does well, maybe it will trickle down to other vehicles in their line up? One can hope!
I think that version of the wrangler is probably a similar system to the renegade, cherokee, grand cherokee, ect probably just a better gear to crawl in.

I think you kinda put the nails in the coffin for me, if a renegade performs just as well or has a slight edge over a bone stock wrangler, in almost everything besides massive rock crawling, that is a truly remarkable achievement.

Better on road, better fuel economy, slight edge non rock crawling off road, and much cheaper. You have to understand the market for serious off roaders is probably like literally 1%, even the lifted wranglers just go to the malls.

Even moderate off roaders don't get crazy with locking diffs unless they bought it like that from the factory say a rubicon, even then it's overkill for most.

If I can get the same performance as my bone stock lifted TJ with open diffs due to the smart electronics I'm a very very happy camper. It's also a matter of time before computers keep improving even more, where they can probably start outperforming mechanical locking diffs.

I took the Renegade the first time down a trail I did with my TJ, nothing crazy since it's not lifted yet, or has proper tires and I was surprised how well it performed, literally on Continental snow tires filled to 40 PSI!

I can eventually see the Wrangler being modernized where their current Selec-Trac systems become the norm, heck I mean they are starting to push it now, and than like a $50K Rubicon version will have solid axels, goodies ect, for "HARDCORE" people.

Technically the truly crazy hardcore off roaders, usually have insane Independent suspension systems. Anyway loving the Renegade so far and I think Jeep is nailing it on the head with these new systems, probably catching up to Land Rover if it hasn't already.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2018, 10:42 PM
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Anyway loving the Renegade so far and I think Jeep is nailing it on the head with these new systems, probably catching up to Land Rover if it hasn't already.
GKN also makes Range Rovers system. According to them (GKN), The Renegades is the most sophisticated system they've made yet (which would imply it's BETTER than the Rover's)


Link:
https://www.gkn.com/en/our-technolog...and-effciency/
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-20-2018, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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GKN also makes Range Rovers system. According to them (GKN), The Renegades is the most sophisticated system they've made yet (which would imply it's BETTER than the Rover's)


Link:
https://www.gkn.com/en/our-technolog...and-effciency/

lol Mind blown lift and tires incoming haha.
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 02:24 PM
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I done a bunch of research and from what I learned I'm a bit disappointed in the false way Jeep represents the renagade as being a 4 x 4. The simple t case is no more than a clutch pack that slips thus you have a front wheel drive system that cares less about rear differential gearing. Or wheel speed and will easily compensate for a ring gear change kudos for that. However if you cannot get the power to the ground you still will not go up that hill. You must use a good bit of moment to keep the clutches engaged and putting power to the wheels. A very tuff Hill climb will take excellent driver abillity. And knowledge to accomplish without hitting rocks exc at speed. You best be a good yo excellent driver to avoid damage to diff or other vaulnerable undercarriage parts.
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 04:31 AM
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I drive the European TH that's equipped with the Diesel engine but I feel it doesn't have the "guts" to do the work, especially in hill climbing. It's such a shame, so much low end power/torque is wasted just because that GKN system(whatever they call it) decides its risky to push it towards its true potential. I'm very disappointed, and I think this functioning cannot be altered(at least without loosing something else).
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 10:59 PM Thread Starter
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I still haven't tried it on a hill climb, might do it soon, just been scared given there are no recovery points, and I don't have a winch on it yet, i hope it doesn't suck, maybe someone will come up modified software to let it do what it does.

I also don't understand what kind of damage it thinks it can do? Why can't it handle the torque, this system is pretty beefy for the small renegade isn't it?

Also, driving on dry roads with 4lock turned on if there is no spinning does it do any damage, from my understanding no. I drove in snow mode a few times on dry pavement because it makes the steering might harder felt like an old BMW lol.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by gselsidi View Post
I still haven't tried it on a hill climb, might do it soon, just been scared given there are no recovery points, and I don't have a winch on it yet, i hope it doesn't suck, maybe someone will come up modified software to let it do what it does.

I also don't understand what kind of damage it thinks it can do? Why can't it handle the torque, this system is pretty beefy for the small renegade isn't it?

Also, driving on dry roads with 4lock turned on if there is no spinning does it do any damage, from my understanding no. I drove in snow mode a few times on dry pavement because it makes the steering might harder felt like an old BMW lol.
Same page here! In diesel TH , you’ve got 260 lb/ft of torque @1750 rpm, 20 crawl ratio reinforced by the T.C, that’s enough to climb a 45 degree rocky hill given it’s weight… yet often it refuses to do even a plain 25-30 degree hill climb.
Probably the decision to quit is guided by various sensors for example, if it detects possible wheel spinning, wet surfaces etc. But the system is too slow and very sophisticated to the point it makes constantly dumb decisions. That’s so ridiculous and frustrating!
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