[wn7ant]

I was trying to charge my Mac Book Pro from 110v AC. After an hour of driving the battery had not gone up at all. Then I notice the laptop doesn't even see that it is hooked to the charger. I purchased a plug used for identifying problems in house wiring. When I plugged it in to the AC outlet, it showed the ground is open.

I took my Jeep in for service at a MOPAR location (dealership). The mechanic did not understand the problem and demonstrated functionality by plugging a two prong electrical device in and demonstrating it worked. I had to explain what the ground is, what it's used for, and how to test it.

They got the schematics from Chrysler, and I immediately observed the problem. The third prong (ground) isn't attached to anything (it's open to ground, like I said). AND that was the way it was engineered. This is a potential safety issue and has the potential to damage equipment.

The problem I have is that I bought a vehicle with what I thought was a fully functional 11v AC outlet. That, however, is not the case.

 

[wn7ant]

Forgot to add the schematic

 

[Hdreserve]

OK..... Thanks for posting! This is disturbing. Will have my Hubby check mine out (he's the electrical/computer one between the two of us!) If so, this will be the first issue I've had with mine so far..... I wonder if this is something that They will come up with a fix for. I would think this would be a recall on all vehicles.......

 

[Rufus]

I'm not an electrical engineer by any means, so I'm open for enlightenment.
All 110v outlets back in the old days did not have a ground. For safety reason it was added as code.
A ground is not required simply to make the circuit work, it's only for safety. A common and a hot creates the circuit, not the ground.
Your charger for the MBP does not require a ground. I'm assuming your using the provided extension cord, but if you remove it and put the original plug back on the charger brick you will notice it's only two prong. The iPhone charger is the same way, as well as every battery charger I have for any of my cameras. A ground is rarely required for these types of devices because there rarely is a cord between the outlet and the DC brick.
I don't know the official rated amp output of this plug (can't be very high), but I do know that it automatically trips when the load it exceeded.
I can only assume that because of this, a ground wouldn't be required since there wouldn't be a possibility of electrocution.
I also wouldn't have any earthly clue on how you would ground this plug since the vehicle (any vehicle for that matter) is riding on 4 rubber tires.
Wouldn't you need a metal rod to be in contact with the earth for a true ground to work?

I immediately tested all of these types of devices in my TH and everything works great. The engine must be running of course to provide the system power.

 

[Hdreserve]

I'm not an electrical engineer by any means, so I'm open for enlightenment.
All 110v outlets back in the old days did not have a ground. For safety reason it was added as code.
A ground is not required simply to make the circuit work, it's only for safety. A common and a hot creates the circuit, not the ground.
Your charger for the MBP does not require a ground. I'm assuming your using the provided extension cord, but if you remove it and put the original plug back on the charger brick you will notice it's only two prong. The iPhone charger is the same way, as well as every battery charger I have for any of my cameras. A ground is rarely required for these types of devices because there rarely is a cord between the outlet and the DC brick.
I don't know the official rated amp output of this plug (can't be very high), but I do know that it automatically trips when the load it exceeded.
I can only assume that because of this, a ground wouldn't be required since there wouldn't be a possibility of electrocution.
I also wouldn't have any earthly clue on how you would ground this plug since the vehicle (any vehicle for that matter) is riding on 4 rubber tires.
Wouldn't you need a metal rod to be in contact with the earth for a true ground to work?

This is pretty much what my Husband just told me. He is going to check mine when he gets home later. He thinks that wn7ant's device should work & there may be something else causing it not to work. He said also they will sometimes tie the ground wire in with the other wire.... Don't know it this was done....

 

[syzygy]

I'm not an electrical engineer by any means, so I'm open for enlightenment.
All 110v outlets back in the old days did not have a ground. For safety reason it was added as code.
A ground is not required simply to make the circuit work, it's only for safety. A common and a hot creates the circuit, not the ground.
Your charger for the MBP does not require a ground. I'm assuming your using the provided extension cord, but if you remove it and put the original plug back on the charger brick you will notice it's only two prong. The iPhone charger is the same way, as well as every battery charger I have for any of my cameras. A ground is rarely required for these types of devices because there rarely is a cord between the outlet and the DC brick.
I don't know the official rated amp output of this plug (can't be very high), but I do know that it automatically trips when the load it exceeded.
I can only assume that because of this, a ground wouldn't be required since there wouldn't be a possibility of electrocution.
I also wouldn't have any earthly clue on how you would ground this plug since the vehicle (any vehicle for that matter) is riding on 4 rubber tires.
Wouldn't you need a metal rod to be in contact with the earth for a true ground to work?

I immediately tested all of these types of devices in my TH and everything works great. The engine must be running of course to provide the system power.

Could ground mean a return to the chassis in auto electrics. I know very little about this either, but that seems to ring a bell.

 

[Rufus]

Could ground mean a return to the chassis in auto electrics. I know very little about this either, but that seems to ring a bell.

Syzygy, I thought of that...but there are a lot of "ifs".
Dissipating the charge to the chassis basically electrifies the entire chassis, but at extreme ohms. If someone was leaning against the vehicle, they would become the ground. Considering the initial charge would be low, the outlet would probably trip quickly at such a load. I would also worry what this would do to all the DC electronics that are grounded to the chassis.
They could also send it to something like a capacitor, but then they would have to figure a way out to dissipate the charge after the fact.
My thinking is that the charge is simply not high enough to warrant a ground, but we're all so sue happy these days people may sue even if there was a small shock.
It's a good point, but I believe there will be a very simple answer, not worth all of our consideration.

 

[syzygy]

Syzygy, I thought of that...but there are a lot of "ifs".
Dissipating the charge to the chassis basically electrifies the entire chassis, but at extreme ohms. If someone was leaning against the vehicle, they would become the ground. Considering the initial charge would be low, the outlet would probably trip quickly at such a load. I would also worry what this would do to all the DC electronics that are grounded to the chassis.
They could also send it to something like a capacitor, but then they would have to figure a way out to dissipate the charge after the fact.
My thinking is that the charge is simply not high enough to warrant a ground, but we're all so sue happy these days people may sue even if there was a small shock.
It's a good point, but I believe there will be a very simple answer, not worth all of our consideration.

I was meaning the 12v side ground as the circuit has both 12v and 110v, but it does say 110v in the title. I should have thought about that more.:laugh:

 

[Oldav8tor]

I don't have a Renegade yet but I doubt that the 110 volt outlet can be used with anything other than low current equipment. Forget hair dryers and the like. As others have said, the lack of a ground should be a non-issue.
For charging iPhones, iPads and such I would prefer to plug a USB adapter into a 12 volt outlet and the cord for the device into that. Remember, USB is 5 volts DC so the adapter need only drop the voltage a bit. Your iPad requires more charging current than an iPhone, around 2.1 amps, so bear that in mind when looking at the specs for any adapter you purchase. I'd save the 110 volt outlet for items actually required 110 volts.

Tim

 

[wn7ant]

To clear up LOTS of misconceptions...

First, I detected the fault by discovering something was not behaving as expected. I then plugged the same device (that wasn't behaving as expected) into a wall, and it worked great, thus eliminating the charger as faulty. Then, as I said, I tested using a known good circuit tester. The test conclusively showed the failure. This is how I discovered there was a problem. The diagram that follows the initial post guarantees that the test was correct, and the conclusion is correct, there is an open to ground. Hdserve, respectfully, your husbands conclusion does not match the available evidence.

So the next question is, is this a problem? If you look at the circuit diagram there is a 30 amp fuse. .5 amps (yes, POINT FIVE amps) can kill you. The amount of current that can go through this fuse is 60 times what can kill you.

Rufus pointed out that old AC wiring used two wires. The ground was added for safety. True. Just like old cars didn't have seat belts. They too, were added for safety.

Much of modern electronics will check for ground faults, for the sake of safety. When they discover a ground fault, they won't operate, again for the sake of safety.

Next, what can you plug in to the AC port? Well, a hair dryer worked great. So did a battery conditioner for car batteries. Either of those devices could kill you easily (a car battery conditioner would be like getting hit with a defibrillator).

It's amperage that kills you, not voltage. Voltage makes electricity arc (simply put, voltage is electrical pressure). At a low enough amperage, you could get hit by what looks like lightening... and it would tickle (amperage is current, the actual amount of flowing electricity, think pipe size).

So based on the available diagram, if you grabbed the hot and neutral on the 110v AC, it would kill you. Period. If you plug in something that uses a chassis ground, and you are in the path to ground when you touch it, it will kill you. Period.

Those are the facts as I learned them from a decade fixing radios in combat conditions and a decade as an amateur radio operator.

 

[syzygy]

To clear up LOTS of misconceptions...

First, I detected the fault by discovering something was not behaving as expected. I then plugged the same device (that wasn't behaving as expected) into a wall, and it worked great, thus eliminating the charger as faulty. Then, as I said, I tested using a known good circuit tester. The test conclusively showed the failure. This is how I discovered there was a problem. The diagram that follows the initial post guarantees that the test was correct, and the conclusion is correct, there is an open to ground. Hdserve, respectfully, your husbands conclusion does not match the available evidence.

So the next question is, is this a problem? If you look at the circuit diagram there is a 30 amp fuse. .5 amps (yes, POINT FIVE amps) can kill you. The amount of current that can go through this fuse is 60 times what can kill you.

Rufus pointed out that old AC wiring used two wires. The ground was added for safety. True. Just like old cars didn't have seat belts. They too, were added for safety.

Much of modern electronics will check for ground faults, for the sake of safety. When they discover a ground fault, they won't operate, again for the sake of safety.

Next, what can you plug in to the AC port? Well, a hair dryer worked great. So did a battery conditioner for car batteries. Either of those devices could kill you easily (a car battery conditioner would be like getting hit with a defibrillator).

It's amperage that kills you, not voltage. Voltage makes electricity arc (simply put, voltage is electrical pressure). At a low enough amperage, you could get hit by what looks like lightening... and it would tickle (amperage is current, the actual amount of flowing electricity, think pipe size).

So based on the available diagram, if you grabbed the hot and neutral on the 110v AC, it would kill you. Period. If you plug in something that uses a chassis ground, and you are in the path to ground when you touch it, it will kill you. Period.

Those are the facts as I learned them from a decade fixing radios in combat conditions and a decade as an amateur radio operator.

You obviously know way more about this than I do ( not difficult)
Can you tell us where it should be earthed to.?

 

[wn7ant]

You obviously know way more about this than I do ( not difficult)
Can you tell us where it should be earthed to.?

The point is, can't be done. The point is, shouldn't have been sold as a three prong receptacle. The point is, we have been sold a bill of goods. The point is, Chrysler took on a **** of a risk by doing this (and doing it incorrectly). Two USB ports or another 12 volt port would have been a better idea.

Doing a chassis ground would be a bad idea too (because there is no actual contact to earthen ground).

That's the point of this.

 

[syzygy]

The point is, can't be done. The point is, shouldn't have been sold as a three prong receptacle. The point is, we have been sold a bill of goods. The point is, Chrysler took on a **** of a risk by doing this (and doing it incorrectly). Two USB ports or another 12 volt port would have been a better idea.


.

Doing a chassis ground would be a bad idea too (because there is no actual contact to earthen ground).

That's the point of this.

Sorry I still don't get it. I have a 150watt invertor which plugs into a cigarette lighter socket. I don't see how it can be earthed.

 

[wn7ant]

Sorry I still don't get it. I have a 150watt invertor which plugs into a cigarette lighter socket. I don't see how it can be earthed.

"I don't see how it can be earthed."

Neither do I.

 

[syzygy]

"I don't see how it can be earthed."

Neither do I.

Then are we sure it needs to be?

 

[Lucky1]

To clear up LOTS of misconceptions...

First, I detected the fault by discovering something was not behaving as expected. I then plugged the same device (that wasn't behaving as expected) into a wall, and it worked great, thus eliminating the charger as faulty. Then, as I said, I tested using a known good circuit tester. The test conclusively showed the failure. This is how I discovered there was a problem. The diagram that follows the initial post guarantees that the test was correct, and the conclusion is correct, there is an open to ground. Hdserve, respectfully, your husbands conclusion does not match the available evidence.

wn7ant, I must respectfully disagree with you...

I looked up the schematics of voltage inverters from a variety of manufactures, and checked the wiring of the 110 VAC outlet in my Ford F150.
All of them have the ground plug hole in the receptacle, but none of them have a ground connection.
you are correct that I get my 110 VAC across Line to Neutral, but there is nothing from Line to Ground.
As someone mentioned earlier there is not a separate earth ground in a vehicle, unless you are going to drive a long metal stake in the ground and then tether your vehicle to the ground stake with a large gauge wire.
This would surely limit your off-road abilities...


From looking at the various schematics from several different manufactures, I don't see where any of them are connecting the Neutral to the vehicle chassis ground, or providing any true Ground circuit.
This is strictly an AC output with a Line and Neutral, which appears to be true of all automotive 110 VAC circuits.
Even the voltage inverters that plug into your cigarette lighter are wired this way...
The third hole in the outlet receptacle seems to be for convenience only, that way you can plug in two pin or three pin connectors.
I would not be concerned about getting killed by using this outlet...

 

[wn7ant]

wn7ant, I must respectfully disagree with you...

I looked up the schematics of voltage inverters from a variety of manufactures, and checked the wiring of the 110 VAC outlet in my Ford F150.
All of them have the ground plug hole in the receptacle, but none of them have a ground connection.

So I'm wrong but you agree with me? Now I'm more confused than ever.

you are correct that I get my 110 VAC across Line to Neutral, but there is nothing from Line to Ground.

So I am correct when I say "open to ground." What you just said is the definition of open to ground.

As someone mentioned earlier there is not a separate earth ground in a vehicle, unless you are going to drive a long metal stake in the ground and then tether your vehicle to the ground stake with a large gauge wire.
This would surely limit your off-road abilities...

Completely agree

From looking at the various schematics from several different manufactures, I don't see where any of them are connecting the Neutral to the vehicle chassis ground, or providing any true Ground circuit.

Can you show me where I claim this is what is done, or that it is what should be done? Because I can show you where I stated it shouldn't be done.

This is strictly an AC output with a Line and Neutral, which appears to be true of all automotive 110 VAC circuits.
Even the voltage inverters that plug into your cigarette lighter are wired this way...
The third hole in the outlet receptacle seems to be for convenience only, that way you can plug in two pin or three pin connectors.

Since you had to go back and check everything you just said, I'm guessing you didn't know that it was this way either. Which means that if no one had said anything, and they walked up to the plug and pointed and asked, "would you expect this ground to work?" I would have a hard time believing you would have said anything but "yes."

I would not be concerned about getting killed by using this outlet...

I bet you wouldn't grab a live wire connected to this plug it if I handed it to you... It has the amperage to kill you. The math supports this statement.

You said you disagreed with me, but you agreed with everything I said. So, I'm confused... What don't you agree with?

 

[syzygy]

We have been using invertors in vehicles for many years. I assume they must be safe or we would not be using them.

 

[Rufus]

I'm still confused by your original post...
First, your newly purchased circuit tester would probably be designed for home use. Yes it's detecting an open ground, but in this case, is it really an issue.
You say that the missing ground is the issue..the reason your charger isn't working, but again, a missing ground will not cause a circuit NOT to work, especially when the MBP doesn't require a ground to charge. I also can't see how a missing ground would be detrimental to your electronic equipment.
You insinuate that the reason your circuit isn't working is the actual design of the circuit, but mine works fine using the same equipment that isn't working for you.
(I tested my MBP charger both with the cord and without the cord with no issues.)
And finally, I don't see how you can ground any kind of AC circuit in an automobile due to the natural insulation of the rubber tires.
Grounding an AC circuit to an automobile frame would accomplish nothing, and in reality probably be far more dangerous since in the event of a short, you would then be electrifying the entire chassis, body, etc, of the vehicle.
Again, I'm no electronic engineer, but much of this doesn't make sense. I'm totally open to someone supplying real answers.

 

[wn7ant]

We have been using invertors in vehicles for many years. I assume they must be safe or we would not be using them.

We drove cars for 60 years before requiring seatbelts.

What I would say is there is a safety issue. Most of us didn't even know it was there before today (I assumed ground worked). I've pointed out the failure of the assumption (no, in fact ground does not work) I've pointed out the safety issue. We (everyone that uses inverters) have decided the risk isn't high enough to find a better solution. That is not "safe" that is acceptance. The risk is there, and using the inverter means accepting the risk. Okay. Move along folks... nobody believes there is anything to see here, which means there isn't...