[Winter]

Interestingly, the Renegade is not on this list...but it looks like the rest of the lineup is

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/2015-new-cars--trucks-and-crossovers-to-avoid-185842139.html

 

[Greenjp]

Pure crap

 

[tony]

It is indeed crap.

The only good things they mentioned were some vehicles from other car makers, which i'll admit are actually good.

 

[wxpete]

I must be missing something. I don't think that article is off base. I would never consider any of the vehicles for the same reasons the article suggests. And for those listed Jeeps, I did consider those models recently and walked away having similar sentiment as the article does.

 

[Karamich]

I can not disagree with the article regarding the Patriot because I own one and they are absolutely right about its low reliability and quality.

I know a friend who owns a Compass and was crying for anyone to buy it so he can get rid of its endless problems

I am on this forum because the Renegade in its TH trim is on my shopping list, I like its design and off-road capability etc but this is my emotional side speaking... Now if I think rationally, I shall get far away from Jeep. For this reason my brain is heading toward Subaru (clearly more expensive)

So if we put emotion and denial on the side, we shall admit that Jeeps despite their iconic and mythical role in the history of automotive, they are one of the least reliable vehicles out there...

For off-road capabilities, I tend to think that someone who can afford the gaz of a Wrangler, shall get the Toyota's off-roaders instead (FJ and 4Runner) being more reliable...

All in all, I own a Jeep, a Patriot and my friend a Compass and I can tell you that they show signs of noizy suspension, many parts start giving trouble early on in their age and they tend to age badly... Now my 2010 at 87.000KM (54000Miles), feels, sounds and behaves like a 15 or 20 years old Japanese one...

 

[raz-0]

I can not disagree with the article regarding the Patriot because I own one and they are absolutely right about its low reliability and quality.

I know a friend who owns a Compass and was crying for anyone to buy it so he can get rid of its endless problems

I am on this forum because the Renegade in its TH trim is on my shopping list, I like its design and off-road capability etc but this is my emotional side speaking... Now if I think rationally, I shall get far away from Jeep. For this reason my brain is heading toward Subaru (clearly more expensive)

So if we put emotion and denial on the side, we shall admit that Jeeps despite their iconic and mythical role in the history of automotive, they are one of the least reliable vehicles out there...

For off-road capabilities, I tend to think that someone who can afford the gaz of a Wrangler, shall get the Toyota's off-roaders instead (FJ and 4Runner) being more reliable...

All in all, I own a Jeep, a Patriot and my friend a Compass and I can tell you that they show signs of noizy suspension, many parts start giving trouble early on in their age and they tend to age badly... Now my 2010 at 87.000KM (54000Miles), feels, sounds and behaves like a 15 or 20 years old Japanese one...

As a Subaru owner, I'll give you some perspective. Mis-engineered I my car.

1) dash horrific rattle from the first winter. They didn't fix the design for 3 years of production. Wouldn't fix it under warranty despite three tsbs on the issue.

2) spark plug change costs $500 cause you can't do it on most m

 

[raz-0]

Stupid phone and editing time out. What I was trying to get out.

As a Subaru owner, I'll give you some perspective. Mis-engineered I my car.

1) dash horrific rattle from the first winter. They didn't fix the design for 3 years of production. Wouldn't fix it under warranty despite three tsbs on the issue.

2) spark plug change costs $500 cause you can't do it on most models without dropping the engine, at least partially.

3) the Subaru sound is unequal length exhaust. This caused cylinder one to go lean in models before my car leading to head gasket leaks. They proclaimed it fixed with the new 2.5. It was. Now a different cylinder goes lean and you kill the head gasket on the other side.

4) their paint is about as durable as cotton candy.

5) electrical gremlins plagued the Hvac unit and dash. Mostly display issues. But also included drivers side window controls.

6) one thermostat for dual zone HVAC and it is located in the driver footwell.

7) self destructing wheel bearings all around. They had to do an extended warranty recall. It covers basically one change of a part that destroys itself at regular intervals. They fought it until quite few vehicles had wheels fall off at speed.

8) all the fake "aluminum" paint wore through fairly rapidly.

9) The infamous tennis ball bushings on the steering. Let's just say super tennis balls were not meant to be ground between steering linkage under the weight of a car for extended periods.

 

[CalTom]

Raz, what year and model Subaru is yours your describing? My wife wants a new Forester, but now you have me concerned.

 

[Karamich]

Stupid phone and editing time out. What I was trying to get out.

As a Subaru owner, I'll give you some perspective. Mis-engineered I my car.

1) dash horrific rattle from the first winter. They didn't fix the design for 3 years of production. Wouldn't fix it under warranty despite three tsbs on the issue.

2) spark plug change costs $500 cause you can't do it on most models without dropping the engine, at least partially.

3) the Subaru sound is unequal length exhaust. This caused cylinder one to go lean in models before my car leading to head gasket leaks. They proclaimed it fixed with the new 2.5. It was. Now a different cylinder goes lean and you kill the head gasket on the other side.

4) their paint is about as durable as cotton candy.

5) electrical gremlins plagued the Hvac unit and dash. Mostly display issues. But also included drivers side window controls.

6) one thermostat for dual zone HVAC and it is located in the driver footwell.

7) self destructing wheel bearings all around. They had to do an extended warranty recall. It covers basically one change of a part that destroys itself at regular intervals. They fought it until quite few vehicles had wheels fall off at speed.

8) all the fake "aluminum" paint wore through fairly rapidly.

9) The infamous tennis ball bushings on the steering. Let's just say super tennis balls were not meant to be ground between steering linkage under the weight of a car for extended periods.

Thanks for the input but I have the same question as CalTom, what Subaru model / year you own? I am considering the Outback 2015...

 

[raz-0]

Raz, what year and model Subaru is yours your describing? My wife wants a new Forester, but now you have me concerned.

Specifically 2005-2008 legacy. I stuck with mostly generic items that applied to all trim levels. The head gasket thing is more common on the turbos which I had, but not exclusive. For a turbo exclusive, you can add the metal intercooler with plastic end tanks would start leaking due to the tabs that held it together deforming. I also left off the fact that the timing belt service is in the upper half of cost, because newer ones are timing chain, and it's far from the only vehicle with that.

I'll also point out if you think the article's perspective is worthwhile, the exact same sources they "analyzed", 2 out of three had subaru adjacent on the list. CR places subaru a bit higher.

CR also has ford in the #2 spot for unreliability. I know a few people with previous generation escapes with over 300k on them. On the other hand, I know people with Edges that have gone through multiple transfer cases.

I know lots of people with RAMs with several hundred thousand miles on them, but RAM takes spot [URL=http://www.jeeprenegadeforum.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 0[/URL] on CR's 10 most unreliable vehicles. GM doesn't, but I know several people with suburbans who for a similar 300k-ish life span went through 3-4 rear ends. (all of them contractors of some flavor or another, but one who put his milage on it as a newspaper photographer).

A lot of the hit for the FCA brands comes down to the issues with their TPDM, which pissed a lot of people off.

Cost to replace is is about $1200 at the dealer.

Cost for a subaru head gasket replacement is about $1100.

IMO, execution on vehicles are getting pretty good and pretty similar. What is increasingly the divide amongst them are design and engineering choices. Almost everything I listed that has been an issue with my subaru has been a design or engineering choice that was wrong, not quality control, and almost all of them required you to own the vehicle for a year or more to find out about them.

We still get ranked lists, but very often these days they are talking about a difference between first and last that used to embody the difference between #1 and #2 0 15-20 years ago.

 

[Karamich]

Specifically 2005-2008 legacy. I stuck with mostly generic items that applied to all trim levels. The head gasket thing is more common on the turbos which I had, but not exclusive. For a turbo exclusive, you can add the metal intercooler with plastic end tanks would start leaking due to the tabs that held it together deforming. I also left off the fact that the timing belt service is in the upper half of cost, because newer ones are timing chain, and it's far from the only vehicle with that.

I'll also point out if you think the article's perspective is worthwhile, the exact same sources they "analyzed", 2 out of three had subaru adjacent on the list. CR places subaru a bit higher.

CR also has ford in the #2 spot for unreliability. I know a few people with previous generation escapes with over 300k on them. On the other hand, I know people with Edges that have gone through multiple transfer cases.

I know lots of people with RAMs with several hundred thousand miles on them, but RAM takes spot [URL=http://www.jeeprenegadeforum.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 0[/URL] on CR's 10 most unreliable vehicles. GM doesn't, but I know several people with suburbans who for a similar 300k-ish life span went through 3-4 rear ends. (all of them contractors of some flavor or another, but one who put his milage on it as a newspaper photographer).

A lot of the hit for the FCA brands comes down to the issues with their TPDM, which pissed a lot of people off.

Cost to replace is is about $1200 at the dealer.

Cost for a subaru head gasket replacement is about $1100.

IMO, execution on vehicles are getting pretty good and pretty similar. What is increasingly the divide amongst them are design and engineering choices. Almost everything I listed that has been an issue with my subaru has been a design or engineering choice that was wrong, not quality control, and almost all of them required you to own the vehicle for a year or more to find out about them.

We still get ranked lists, but very often these days they are talking about a difference between first and last that used to embody the difference between #1 and #2 0 15-20 years ago.

Thanks again for the information. I have no doubt that Subaru has its load of issues but I think that as an overall, Subarus statistically are more durable and live more on our streets here in Montreal Canada than any old jeep or American car in general.

I can count the old Subarus running around with amazement while old Jeeps are very very rare encounters... And Montreal weather is one harsh thing for a car...

Also I own a Jeep Patriot 2010 4x4as I previously mentioned multiple times on this forum and it is everything but a reliable SUV; it ages really badly with noises, sounds, engine vibration and all sort of Suspension issues... Compass owners I know complain about the same exact horrible things... I hope the Renegade won't be like Patriot...

I love the Renegade look and feel and the Trailhawk is my favorite, but if I find that it is too expensive for its size, I am planning to go bigger and lease an Outback 2015 for 3 or 4 years as a versatile family / outdoors vehicle... During these 4 years, I will see what issues will appear but will negotiate an extra warranty that covers my extra lease period...

Cheers

 

[DogsRule]

Very interesting. My son is very pro-Subaru for many reasons, but also will readily ID the problems throughout the model years. He prefers the old GL subarus.

He is also a ASE mechanic so repairing a subaru to him is no more work than reaching for the TV remote for the rest of us.

I fully expect to replace at least half of the moving parts in my hope-for 20 years of ownership. Just so long as the non-moving parts don't rust out. That would p*** me off.

I have to replace most of my 07 Liberty front suspension this weekend and I'm seeing rust stains coming from beneath the door panel crimps. Grrr.

 

[raz-0]

Very interesting. My son is very pro-Subaru for many reasons, but also will readily ID the problems throughout the model years. He prefers the old GL subarus.

He is also a ASE mechanic so repairing a subaru to him is no more work than reaching for the TV remote for the rest of us.

I fully expect to replace at least half of the moving parts in my hope-for 20 years of ownership. Just so long as the non-moving parts don't rust out. That would p*** me off.

The biggest risk for rust with the subaru seems to be the ultra delicate paint. Keep it touched up and it wouldn't likely be an issue. If you are referring to a subaru. It's not clear.

One thing I do have to give my Subaru props for is that unlike most cars I have run into, after nearly a decade of ownership, all the plastic electrical connectors are not getting brittle and making you play russian roulette every time you disconnect something. But that may be that plastics in that area improved across the board and isn't just a subaru thing.

From my perspective, I'm not saying that subaru is crap, just that they aren't much different than other cars. MAny times it's in how the message is delivered and the perspective of who is delivering it.

If I ditched my cars after 6 years, the subaru would have appeared awesome. Nothing but oil changes, tires, and brakes and the early grumblings of wheel bearing failure on cold winter days when backing up.

If I ditched my eclipse at 6 years, I would have ditched a car with the same deal, but also a timing belt change I had to do, and a transmission rebuild. That sounds awful, right?

Except the eclipse transmission went because contrary to the opinion of the dealership, you just might need to actually put the right fluid in it. But it didn't fail soon enough to be able to prove anything without paying more to lwyers than I would to fix it. In the end, after 8+ years in the eclipse, the scheduled maintenance, plus that transmission repair, is going to wind up costing me less in inflation adjusted dollars than the scheduled maintenance on the subaru that is made more expensive due to the boxer engine, plus the engineered in, no real fix, wheel bearing problem. The eclipse had WAY more rattles, all of which were fixable with some DIY work with sound deadening material in a few spots. Total expenditures on the eclipse would be less with 168k on the odometer at 8+ years than my subaru with about 102 at 9+ years.

I know which one JD powers and CR and a bunch of others told me was a better car that was more reliable. Truth was they are approximately the same give or take about $1k in costs. And with both I could choose to dump money in them and keep going.

In contrast, my mom had a 95 dodge stratus. Drove it for about 12 years. Put about as much money into keeping it on the road as I put into those other two. She put about 155k on it in that time. The main difference between that and the mitsu and subaru was that at that point, you could put all the money you wanted into it, it really wasn't going to be fixed, and the dodge business as usual interior did not hold up nearly as well. But until recently, the whole mopar ecosystem has had pretty awfully executed interiors.

 

[DogsRule]

Yes, Subies are great. In fact, I had a Saabaru (the SAAB 9-2x body on the Impreza AWD platform). GREAT CAR.

The rust issues I had are in regardds to the Jeep. I've had all my cars make it to 200k miles. The only ones I regret going that far as the body rusted out were Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth cars. So I guess my beef is with the old Detroit Chrysler Jeeps.

And BTW, I did have my Liberty replace the rear trailing arms due to rust perforation. Not encouraging.

Lets hope the HS steel and Fiat crew can make a good rust-resistant chassis.

 

[tony]

I can vouch for subbies as well.
I had a first generation impreza 2 door, a while ago. Got rid of it just the past year since it was rusting so bad that it wasn't worth it for me to fix... hopefully someone saved it and didn't turn it into a small metal square.

 

[Jeepers]

Subaru is definitely an underrated car brand. I rarely hear anything bad about them but they just aren't that popular really.

I still think that the criticisms of Jeep are a bit crazy though. The current jeep lineup is great and it sells quite well, so I just don't see what grounds for criticism this guy is going on.

 

[Reg]

I was shopping Foresters as my next vehicle because one can be bought with a manual pretty well equipped, and the vehicle is easy to see out of, relative to most modern crossovers. Unfortunately, spending time on Subie enthusiast's forums has scared me away due to the oil consumption issues. Do a little research and you will find many die-hard Subaru folks swearing off the brand due to this problem. There were quite a few owners ('11-'13 model year) that had rings replaced and the problem persisted, only to trade for a 2014 and have the same problem. Many were disappointed with Subaru's handing of the issue (mainly denial).

 

[CalTom]

I was shopping Foresters as my next vehicle because one can be bought with a manual pretty well equipped, and the vehicle is easy to see out of, relative to most modern crossovers. Unfortunately, spending time on Subie enthusiast's forums has scared me away due to the oil consumption issues. Do a little research and you will find many die-hard Subaru folks swearing off the brand due to this problem. There were quite a few owners ('11-'13 model year) that had rings replaced and the problem persisted, only to trade for a 2014 and have the same problem. Many were disappointed with Subaru's handing of the issue (mainly denial).

Hi Reg, thanks so much for pointing this out, my wife wants a new Forester, but now, like you, I'm really concerned. I've been reading a bunch of the posts on oil consumption and it seems somewhat random on the latest 2015s.

These two posts explain how this is a know quirk of the boxer engine design:

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbull...ssive-oil-loss-388194/index3.html#post4074745

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbull...ssive-oil-loss-388194/index3.html#post4073513

So this weekend when I'm at the California Orange County Auto Show looking at the new Renegade and checking out Camp Jeep, I'll checkout the redesigned 2015 Honda CR-V for my wife, and maybe a few others.

 

[raz-0]

Hi Reg, thanks so much for pointing this out, my wife wants a new Forester, but now, like you, I'm really concerned. I've been reading a bunch of the posts on oil consumption and it seems somewhat random on the latest 2015s.

These two posts explain how this is a know quirk of the boxer engine design:

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbull...ssive-oil-loss-388194/index3.html#post4074745

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbull...ssive-oil-loss-388194/index3.html#post4073513

So this weekend when I'm at the California Orange County Auto Show looking at the new Renegade and checking out Camp Jeep, I'll checkout the redesigned 2015 Honda CR-V for my wife, and maybe a few others.

The thing with the oil consumption is not so much the consumption, although I have an older engine than the new 2.0s. It's that the Subaru dipstick is nearly useless. It doesn't really perform its basic function at all. You CAN get a reading, but it pretty much involves putting it to bed right and checking with careful technique in the morning and you get ONE shot to do it right.

Chucking in a bit of oil is not that big a deal if you can actualy keep an eye on it and tell when.

 

[CalTom]

Chucking in a bit of oil is not that big a deal if you can actualy keep an eye on it and tell when.

Thanks Raz, are you having to check oil at every fuel fill, like some discuss?