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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I received my Car & Driver May issue in the mail yesterday and this morning I read their review of the Renegade Sport 4x4 with the 1.4L Turbo and the 6-speed manual transmission.

To summarize, they like it much more than the Limited they previously reviewed. They think the engine & transmission combo is much more fun to drive, and it is faster, handles better on their skidpad, and has shorter stopping distances, along with a 300 lb weight advantage compared to the Limited 4x4 they reviewed a couple of months ago.

When I look at the Jeep spec sheet under their "minimum" curb weights, the weight difference between the two should only be 121 lbs. That tells me that a fully loaded Limited with all the options comes in quite a bit more than the "minimum" curb weight for a 4x4 with the 2.4/auto. Their sport was pretty stripped with only the A/C package and alloy wheels.

Here's a quote from their review:

"It isn't a road burner, but it's a revelation for a Jeep, cornering in a way that suggests the front and rear ends actually work together."
 

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If the Limited 9-speed automatic is programmed the same as the Trailhawk, it always starts in 2nd gear while in drive. I'd bet they didn't realize that. That will make it feel slower than the manual.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If the Limited 9-speed automatic is programmed the same as the Trailhawk, it always starts in 2nd gear while in drive. I'd bet they didn't realize that. That will make it feel slower than the manual.
Actually that is unique to the trailhawk as it has a much lower first gear ratio which is what it uses in Rock mode for its hill descent control.
 

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I wish the terms were used correctly.

Faster = High top speed
Quicker = Getting to speed quicker

The 1.4 has more torque which makes it quicker
The 2.4 has more HP which makes it faster

In short races the 1.4 will be better since it gets to speed quicker, in longer races the 2.4 will shine as it has a higher top speed.

Scott
 

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Interesting. Quicker or Faster are words I'd never use off road. I want 'softer' or 'surer' or 'agiler' as mine will be inner city or off road speeds. The terrain is just as nasty either way.

But a great explanation still.
 

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I wish the terms were used correctly.

Faster = High top speed
Quicker = Getting to speed quicker

The 1.4 has more torque which makes it quicker
The 2.4 has more HP which makes it faster

In short races the 1.4 will be better since it gets to speed quicker, in longer races the 2.4 will shine as it has a higher top speed.

Scott
Faster = drive the same distance in shorter time.
Unless you live in Europe there are no fast cars. All you can have is 70mph.
 

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Faster = drive the same distance in shorter time.
Unless you live in Europe there are no fast cars. All you can have is 70mph.
I disagree with your faster...

Take two cars that are built the same expect one has more torque and one has more HP.

You run them down the quarter mile, the car with more torque will get to the better time.

Now, the same two cars doing a hundred laps. The first lap goes to the car with the higher torque but, the other 99 laps go to the car with the higher HP because it has a higher top speed.


Which is faster:
Car A with more Torque and better 1/4 mile times
Car B with more HP and better lap times

By your definition, they are both faster...

That is why
Quick is getting to the top as fast as possible
Fast is higher top speed

Torque is the power to get things moving
HP is the power once thing are moving


Scott
 

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I disagree with your faster...

Take two cars that are built the same expect one has more torque and one has more HP.

You run them down the quarter mile, the car with more torque will get to the better time.

Now, the same two cars doing a hundred laps. The first lap goes to the car with the higher torque but, the other 99 laps go to the car with the higher HP because it has a higher top speed.


Which is faster:
Car A with more Torque and better 1/4 mile times
Car B with more HP and better lap times

By your definition, they are both faster...

That is why
Quick is getting to the top as fast as possible
Fast is higher top speed

Torque is the power to get things moving
HP is the power once thing are moving


Scott
Except when the one with the higher HP is electronically limited to the same top speed as the one with higher torque because they both wear the same tire with the same speed rating.
 

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I disagree with your faster...

Take two cars that are built the same expect one has more torque and one has more HP.

You run them down the quarter mile, the car with more torque will get to the better time.

Now, the same two cars doing a hundred laps. The first lap goes to the car with the higher torque but, the other 99 laps go to the car with the higher HP because it has a higher top speed.


Which is faster:
Car A with more Torque and better 1/4 mile times
Car B with more HP and better lap times

By your definition, they are both faster...

That is why
Quick is getting to the top as fast as possible
Fast is higher top speed

Torque is the power to get things moving
HP is the power once thing are moving


Scott
I never drive 1/4 mile, I would rather walk that distance.
My definition of fast is relative to location.

When I drive from Seattle to Portland, 70hp old beater is as fast as 700hp Dodge Charger. There are no 'faster' cars.

When I drive from Berlin to Karlsruhe I'll be 'faster' at destination in Dodge Charger.
 

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Regardless, the point Rivmage is making is valid. HP dictates how fast a car can go and given enough distance, no speed limits, etc. Torque dictates how fast you accelerate but generally speaking can never attain the speed of the higher HP car. Personal driving habits are really beside the point.

What's missing here is that it's not just the stated (peak) torque number that matters. It's the torque the wheels apply to the ground over the entire range of acceleration. i.e., the area under the torque curve. That being the case, the 1.4T doesn't necessarily accelerate quicker than the 2.4, but I'd be curious to know if that's the case since I plan to buy a Renegade soon.
 

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I bet the auto will accelerate more quickly if you start in 1st gear because it is lower than the 1st gear in the six-speed.

My Trailhawk always starts in second gear if I leave it in drive. The only way to start in 1st gear is to use auto-stick and manually select first. Rock Mode starts in first, but you won't use this mode to accelerate to 60 mph.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Car & Driver only compared a manual Sport with an auto Limited, so there was the stated 300 lb difference. I suspect if the auto was also a Sport then the weight difference would be around 125 lbs.

So given the 300 lb weight difference, they found the manual Sport to be better in every performance test they did. It accelerated faster to 60, was faster in the quarter mile, was faster around the skidpad, and stopped from 70 mph quicker.

If you were to throw a trailhawk into the same tests, it would no doubt weigh even more than the Limited. It also sits slightly higher, so it would have more aero drag. Those 2 factors would mean acceleration and braking distances would be slightly worse, and because of the raised suspension, handling would also be slightly worse.

That's the tradeoff you make for a good offroad vehicle. Test a wrangler in the same on-pavement tests and the results would be even more pitiful.

If you want good on-road and off-road performance, buy a Range Rover for $80k. But for $20-40k, you can have one, but not both.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The 125# difference is just from the drivetrain? If that's the case, then getting the 1.4T seems like a no-brainer.
Yeah, I just checked and it's 121 lbs according to Jeep's numbers. They list the "minimum" weights for the 1.4T 4x4 at 3190 lbs, and for the 2.4L 4x4 they list 3311 lbs. The trailhawk lists at 3490 lbs.

Those are "minimum" weights, which in the case of the first 2 figures means a totally stripped Sport with no A/C or any other options. Car & Driver did not give actual weight numbers, but they said their Limited 2.4L 4x4 was 300 lbs more than their Sport 1.4T 4x4. So obviously the extra options on the Limited added at least an additional 175 lbs over the 3311 lbs figure.

I'd imagine a fully loaded trailhawk must be around 3600 lbs. So yes, there is a big difference in weight across the Renegade lineup.
 

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One thing I'm always cautious about when reading auto journalist reviews. These guys are mostly out hooning for a half hour in the car, and most of them have delusions of being Mario Andretti in a family car.

Now when you read a review of how fun they found a car while flogging it at high RPM, you have to ask yourself, "how do I drive on a daily basis"? If you routinely drive around town with the engine red-lined or in the peak power band, then the 1.4 is probably for you.

On the other hand, if you're a normal human being and basically just drive around at low to medium RPM, the higher displacement engine is probably for you (as a rule). Engines get complicated quick, and things are changing with the proliferation of high output, small displacement turbos, but the general rule is the bigger displacement engine will ease along at lower RPMs, which is where I think most people drive. They tend to be quieter at those low RPMs too.

For example, the monster Corvette V8 engine - it lazies down the interstate at something barely over 1,000 RPM and close to 30 MPG.

The 1.4 might be your baby, nothing wrong with that. I'm sure it's a frenetic blast to drive enthusiastically - for maybe 20 minutes. Just make sure you're being honest with yourself about how you actually drive, day in and day out, and that you pick the engine that works for your driving style. Especially if you plan to cross the USA on an interstate highway at 75 MPH.

Not a turbo hater here - I had a turbocharged Rx-7 rotary that was a blast and a comfy ride both, and was smooooth. And it's becoming clear that turbos are taking over the world as makers try to meet rising MPG standards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
That is definitely a good point, and I think that is why Jeep chose to only offer the 1.4T with a manual transmission because it's more meant for the driving enthusiast. As for myself, I do tend to rev my engine a lot. I've always preferred high revving engines, and I love that small displacement turbo exhaust sound. But others may not.
 

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