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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was almost decided to go with the Renegade over the HR-V or CX-3 but then I see this in the news. Makes me wonder about the integrity of Fiat Chrysler Jeep?

Fiat Chrysler has been hit with a record $105 million fine for the way that it handled a car recall affecting millions of vehicles.

The Italian car maker has signed an agreement with the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration agreeing to buy back hundreds of thousands of vehicles, including more than one million Jeeps, whose owners can trade their cars in or get them repaired. The unprecedented deal is unprecedented is accompanied by an agreement to allow an independent monitor to audit Fiat’s recall over the next three years.

The Fiat fine sets a record for the NHTSA, eclipsing the previous record of $70 million imposed against Honda in January for failing to report death and injury.

"Fiat Chrysler's pattern of poor performance put millions of its customers and the driving public at risk," Mark Rosekin, administrator of the NHTSA, said in a statement. "This action will provide relief to owners of defective vehicles, will help improve recall performance throughout the auto industry, and gives Fiat Chrysler the opportunity to embrace a proactive safety culture."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...with-105m-fine-over-jeep-recall-10417684.html
 

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I have a Dodge Challenger and a Renegade Trailhawk. I'm not a bit worried. If you want a new car and like the Renegade, get it. Personally I don't like the looks of either of the other two cars you were considering.
 
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Sorry to feel Vindicated

Here's a quote from my post last 03-23-2015, 05:26 AM that quotes a NHTSA report about transmission problems with the same 9 speed auto tranny that is in the Cherokee and the Renegade:

“Look(s) like I'll have to wait till next year. Such a build up. Such a disappointment. I believe Ford did the same thing with the redesigned 'Retro' T-Bird. By the time it was ready for Prime Time, the coolness had worn off. Disappointing sales. Discontinued car.

Good Grief!

Isn't Chrysler on its last leg now. How could a grown up make such a foolish, and possibly fatal mistake.

HOW DO YOU CYA IN ITALIAN”


I got 32 replies most of them were accompanied with flames coming through my screen.

One in particular burned my butt with its knee-jerk response, and I mean ‘JERK’.

Here it is:

Deathshead Responded on 03-23-2015, 05:54 PM:

“Really??
Do you even READ?
and its Ciao, please do..”


Deathshead, I am sorry you felt the need to respond that way. I was only trying to express my concern that this transmission is a known problem, and it seams to be a serious, life threatening, ongoing disaster for many Cherokee and Renegade owners and their families.

Also, CYA reads “Cover Your ASS” not Ciao!

You do read?

Who’s the ASS now!>:D

Sorry to say CFA is a DEAD CAT.:crying:

I hope the JEEP does not go down with the ship.

:ReneBlueWave: Bye, Bye.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Sorry to feel Vindicated

“Look(s) like I'll have to wait till next year. Such a build up. Such a disappointment. I believe Ford did the same thing with the redesigned 'Retro' T-Bird. By the time it was ready for Prime Time, the coolness had worn off. Disappointing sales. Discontinued car.

Good Grief!

Isn't Chrysler on its last leg now. How could a grown up make such a foolish, and possibly fatal mistake.

I hope the JEEP does not go down with the ship.
Danmcmanus, looks like you had good early insight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I have a Dodge Challenger and a Renegade Trailhawk. I'm not a bit worried. If you want a new car and like the Renegade, get it. Personally I don't like the looks of either of the other two cars you were considering.
bwbike, I do like the Renegade, but, here you have a car company who has dragged there feet over 23 recalls, 11 milllion cars and trucks. So it does not matter if we like it or not, look at the track record, I don't want to say ticking time bomb, but I'm not sure I want my family in there products.

Both the Jeep and Ram measures are part of a larger settlement between the government and the automaker over allegations of misconduct in 23 recalls covering more than 11 million vehicles.

The complex agreement was hammered out in the wake of what NHTSA Administrator Mark Rosekind called an "unprecedented" hearing early this month to examine how Fiat Chrysler handled 23 separate recalls. It was determined that the maker didn't meet federal guidelines on a number of those, including failing to notify customers of recalls, delaying making and distributing repair parts and in some cases failing to come up with repairs that fix the problems. Some of the recalls date to 2011.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...y-back-hundreds-thousands-ram-pickups-n398911
Penalties issued Sunday for the auto company’s lax attitude toward addressing safety issues in millions of its vehicles.

NHTSA said it was concerned about slow completion rates on recalls the automaker announced, slow or inadequate notifications to consumers, faulty approaches to fixing the safety issues and improper actions by dealers.

Offer to buy back more than half a million vehicles with defective suspension parts that could cause the vehicle to lose control. The vehicles, mainly Dodge SUV and Ram pickup trucks, were built between 2008 and 2012.

Offer owners of more than a million Jeeps Cherokee that are prone to deadly fires to trade their vehicle in for above its market value, or receive a financial incentive to get a trailer hitch installed for additional protection.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/2015/07/27/fiat-chrysler-nhtsa-fine-recalls/30693265/
 

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I was almost decided to go with the Renegade over the HR-V or CX-3 but then I see this in the news. Makes me wonder about the integrity of Fiat Chrysler Jeep?
No Honda no since, if You are worried about FCA, You should be also about Honda and many other manufacturesrs (for example GM, Toyota, ...).

Thursday, January 8, 2015
"U.S. Department of Transportation Fines Honda $70 Million for Failing to Comply with Laws That Safeguard the Public"

"...
WASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced today that as a result of a NHTSA investigation, Honda will pay two $35 million civil penalties, for a total of $70 million, for failing to report deaths, injuries, and certain warranty claims to the federal government in violation of the TREAD Act. In the Consent Order, finalized just before the new year, Honda also agreed to increased NHTSA oversight and third party audits to ensure that all required reporting is completed now and into the future.
..."

"...
NHTSA's investigation into Honda's safety reporting found that the automaker failed to submit early warning reports (EWR reports) identifying potential or actual safety issues. The first civil penalty is a result of Honda's failure to report 1,729 death and injury claims to NHTSA between 2003 and 2014. The second civil penalty is due to the manufacturer's failure to report certain warranty claims and claims under customer satisfaction campaigns throughout the same time period. Additional details are available in the audit report prepared for Honda by Bowman and Brooke and in Honda's Response to NHTSA's Special Order addressing the violations.
..."

Link: http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/2015/DOT-fines-Honda-$70-million
 

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Here's a quote from my post last 03-23-2015, 05:26 AM that quotes a NHTSA report about transmission problems with the same 9 speed auto tranny that is in the Cherokee and the Renegade:

“Look(s) like I'll have to wait till next year. Such a build up. Such a disappointment. I believe Ford did the same thing with the redesigned 'Retro' T-Bird. By the time it was ready for Prime Time, the coolness had worn off. Disappointing sales. Discontinued car.

Good Grief!

Isn't Chrysler on its last leg now. How could a grown up make such a foolish, and possibly fatal mistake.

HOW DO YOU CYA IN ITALIAN”


I got 32 replies most of them were accompanied with flames coming through my screen.

One in particular burned my butt with its knee-jerk response, and I mean ‘JERK’.

Here it is:

Deathshead Responded on 03-23-2015, 05:54 PM:

“Really??
Do you even READ?
and its Ciao, please do..”


Deathshead, I am sorry you felt the need to respond that way. I was only trying to express my concern that this transmission is a known problem, and it seams to be a serious, life threatening, ongoing disaster for many Cherokee and Renegade owners and their families.

Also, CYA reads “Cover Your ASS” not Ciao!

You do read?

Who’s the ASS now!>:D

Sorry to say CFA is a DEAD CAT.:crying:

I hope the JEEP does not go down with the ship.

:ReneBlueWave: Bye, Bye.
That NHTSA entry was likely for a Cherokee, not a Renegade. The article was entered before the USDM release of the Renegade and it references a V6.

That said, the guy who responded to you could have chilled out a bit in his response. All things being equal, I wouldn't consider that to be Chrysler on it's last leg. Chrysler's been in far worse situations, as have the other manufacturers.
 

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bwbike, I do like the Renegade, but, here you have a car company who has dragged there feet over 23 recalls, 11 milllion cars and trucks. So it does not matter if we like it or not, look at the track record, I don't want to say ticking time bomb, but I'm not sure I want my family in there products.
Go read the actual postings on the NHTSA website ( http://www.safercar.gov/rs/chrysler/index.html ). Most, if not all of these things were problems created under Daimler and/or Cerberus (mostly cerberus) that the NHTSA couldn't be bothered with for decades. FYI daimler owned them 1998-2007, cerberus owned them 2007-2010, at that point ownership was essentially joint between

In the last two to three years however, two things happened.

1) The NHTSA got audited and the result was a public airing of how poorly they were doing there job. (likely had the intensity of this turned up to 11 because of the whole tacata airbag debacle)

2) FCA income has risen almost totally on the back of chrysler brand sales, and the income from such was not used ot pay off government loans ahead of schedule, but to pay of fiat debt (purportedly to a degree more than required by the terms of the debt).

Wind the clock back a bit further, and you will find that in 2011 the US government sold off all their Chrysler stock.

FCA is being made an example of. The kind of stuff they are getting nailed for doing was running rampant in the industry.

Just an FYI, when you see cerberus buy something, you can expect a pattern of cut and burn with the company taking on massive amounts of debt unnecessarily and funneling the debt revenue as well as earning profits to cerberus short term, at which point cerberus tries to sell the property before people realize it is a gutted shell. With Chrysler, they bought it, borrowed, wrote a bunch of low quality loans, sold the gutted shell of a company to the federal government, keeping the low quality loans in chrysler financial, securitized them and then sold them all off to another banking interest. They got paid by daimler to do that to the company, and gave daimler a bunch of free IP as a door prize on the way out.

Cerberus is EXTREMELY connected politically, and oddly enough, most of this failure of the NHTSA to do proper oversight happened while they and the federal government were significant stake holders in the company.

You can make of it what you will, but look at the timeline on what was recalled when you try to decide whose ethics you are seeing summed up in the recall process, and keep in mind that a LOT of the investigations were supposed to be things NHTSA was monitoring but couldn't be bothered to across the industry.

A decent read on Cerberus regarding Chrysler.
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/cerberus-buys-chrysler.html

An article on the NHTSA audit. Warning. NSFW language in text.
http://jalopnik.com/scathing-audit-reveals-nhtsa-is-a-five-star-government-1713128651
 

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Also, FYI for the sinking ship thing. FCA has about $22 billion cash on hand to deal with this, and also has the option to stop sinking revenue into loan repayments to the degree they have been. Which could be argued is possible motivation for making an example of them rather than say GM, as FCA was expatriating profits made in the US, and the current executive branch population has grievances with that from an ideological standpoint. We are also nearing UAW renegotiations of the current contract. The current executive branch is a member of the DNC which used to be able to count on them as a voting block, but has handed them their own poteriors with the auto maker bailout and then followed up with what the ACA did to them, so they might also be wanting to create pressure on FCA to be compliant with UAW demands because The top of siad executive branch is going to be up for grabs without the momentum of an incumbent with the benefit of an incumbent who pissed off a whole lot of the DNC voting blocks while galvanizing opposition blocks. So....
 

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Very interesting for a non-US resident to read all the info about Chrysler. For myself, I have owned Fiat Group cars almost continuously for 35 years and have to say that any recalls have been promptly and fairly dealt with. My initial thought on reading the UK press coverage is that Fiat is being made to pay for others' failings. However, they have clearly benefitted greatly from the addition of the Chrysler/Jeep brand and presumably feel it is worth the cost.
 

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There are always two sides to every story. I suggest that you read this article at Automotive News: http://www.autonews.com/article/201...chrysler-decided-to-fight-nhtsa#axzz2VMGMOxrL


A quote from the article:
"The Jeeps' design -- including its rear-mounted fuel tank -- was approved and exceeded the standards in place at the time of their manufacture. If automakers are forced to retroactively upfit their aging fleet to meet evolving safety standards, that is the start of a slippery regulatory slope that does not have a happy ending for the industry."
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
There are always two sides to every story. I suggest that you read this article at Automotive News
Arild, good point, that does seem like a stretch to force Jeep to recall such old models, but that story is over a year old. In the end, Fiat Chrysler did not win the fight and agreed with the government on the fine.

And, the current issue is over 23 seperate recalls and those were just two of them. Maybe they thought that it was cheaper than a class action lawsuit?
 

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Go read the actual postings on the NHTSA website ( http://www.safercar.gov/rs/chrysler/index.html ). Most, if not all of these things were problems created under Daimler and/or Cerberus (mostly cerberus) that the NHTSA couldn't be bothered with for decades. FYI daimler owned them 1998-2007, cerberus owned them 2007-2010, at that point ownership was essentially joint between

In the last two to three years however, two things happened.

Remaining text snipped
Awesome post @raz-0. Good info.

TS
 

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That is a big pile of money, how did they get so much if there profit margins are so thin?

And, why do they want to merge with GM if they have so much cash?
Because they have a lot of debt, have rolled out a bunch of capital improvements, and still need to implement three chassis by 2018 (likely meaning more factory updates) while trying to meet cafe standards they are the farthest from meeting of the big three U.S. manufacturers.

Fiat has good diesels, they hav jack for hybrids, fuel cell, ev, or whatever their solution is to the long term cafe standards.
 
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