[Tom]

Hi,
I’m starting a new thread here because the FCA Quality Comparison does not come to the point.

When it comes to long-term reliability I want to know if a car has major weaknesses or not. For example, the Subaru Diesel Boxer XV Crosstrek is a great car BUT it has major problems with its Diesel engine and smoking clutches (confirmed in many online platforms). In Germany, they have dissected the car after 100,000 km and the result in terms of reliability was a disaster. Sadly, this car is therefore a NOGO.

http://www.autobild.de/bilder/100.000-kilometer-im-subaru-xv-5257958.html#bild13

Similarly, the Suzuki Grand Vitara is a nice offroad SUV with gear reduction but the Peugeot-Diesel is not at all reliable and the car is generally susceptible to rust. Hence it is a NOGO for buying.

I have driven the new Renegade recently and I found the car really well built. The internal material felt sturdy and of high quality. I have also talked to the dealer and asked him about reliability of the 140 HP Diesel engine. His answer was that these engines are used for many years now especially in FIAT delivery vans and they would easily last for 200-300,000 km. That made me smile.

So are there any known NOGOs (engine failure, rust, chassis problems etc.) that should prevent me from buying the Jeep Renegade?

I am looking forward to sharing your experience.
Tom

 

[mich]

The dealer were right. The past years had the opportunity to drove lots of company cars, starting from the Fiat ones with the very first generation of multijet diesel engines (it was 115hp) for at least 8 years with 50000km/year to the germans, audi/vw at the most.
Well, while the Fiat aren't so famous for the construction quality, I never had a stop due the engine. On the other hand, the germans, very very well built, left me on the street with very big (and very expensive) problems with the diesel high pressure pump and the injection system.

While the perfection doesn't exists, the Fiat multijet is one of the most reliable diesel engine here in Europe.

 

[raz-0]

There's a few things. First, you have the huge bunch of vehicles with the TPIM problems. This cuts across all of chrysler's offerings, but isn't really a fiat thing. That may be an issue of the past, but we won't know until the vehicles of the last few years get a bit older.

The next big thing I noticed looking through actual owner reports of issues they have had on recent jeeps, was software/firmware. They are just pushing stuff out the door with bugs that cause very noticeable problems to the end user. To make it worse, the first revision doesn't seem to ever fix the problem. From the accounts I have read 2-3 visits does not seem to be uncommon.

Beyond that it seems to be a pretty standard array of a random part was bad, or a random line worker didn't do their job 100% on that given vehicle. What makes this worse is that currently, the FCA brands seem to have sub-par parts availability that leaves you waiting on parts.

Another bad thing is that overall Chrysler brand dealers have been historically horrible. They have improved quite a bit over the last two decades, but they still have issues. One good thing is that from the sounds of it, is that the regional and head offices are still quite good about helping out the customer in terms of warranty and service issues with dealers.

By that I mean if you have a warranty claim, go to the dealer, and the dealer tries to avoid covering it, call the mothership, and they approach it as a matter of seeing what they can do for you. Often it's a fair bit. In contrast, with mitsubishi, the dealers tried to deny anything, and when you called the mothership, their primary concern was validating the denial. With Subaru, the dealers are nicer, and from what I have been told subaru runs them through the ringer on justifying warranty fixes less than some other brands, but the regional warranty people don't want to hear from customers much less the head office.

I think a big part of why the FCA brands take a big hit is that you drive off the lot with a brand new car, and there's a good chance you get hit with a software bug, because they seem to put a lot into production, and they affect ALL of a certain configuration when they do. Then you have the problem, and if you have no TSB for it, the dance at the dealer is probably some threatening noises about charging you for a diagnostic if they don't find anything because without a part to replace, or a new frimware revision to flash, they basically waste time and lose a bit of money on your visit. So now not only does your car have a problem, but you wasted time, and have essentially been told it can't be fixed. Unless your dealer happens to have a good service manager who follows up and tells you a TSB has dropped for your issues, or there's new firmware for you, you will rinse and repeat this process until maybe the third or fourth visit. For mechanical stuff, you play the lottery of long periods without your car, or multiple visits to be fixed. The net result is you get pissed off, waste more of your time than needed, and wind up with the impression that FCA brands make cars that don't work right, and CAN'T be fixed. That's a pretty bad impression to leave.

 

[JeepFan]

It just sucks that american car makers are usually known for this stuff, things seem to have turned around a bit, maybe Fiat being in the picture has helped a bit.

The downside to a new vehicle like this is your chances to have problems are more than any other model year for this vehicle.

 

[raz-0]

It just sucks that american car makers are usually known for this stuff, things seem to have turned around a bit, maybe Fiat being in the picture has helped a bit.

The downside to a new vehicle like this is your chances to have problems are more than any other model year for this vehicle.

Not always, there are definitely examples form the past where they cut corners in after introduction to meet margins, or switched manufacturing facilities to someplace cheaper. Depending on popularity, the prospect of year one being all produced in melfi and year two being all produced in brazil for the us market is a distinct possibility.

It's not as common, but it does happen.

My current car, waiting for year two dodged having to put up with a TCU flash and fixing US bumper requirements with bigger bumpers. But it got you an aluminum hood and door skins and about 85lbs of weight savings.

 

[CalTom]

I give up, I'm tired of all this poor quality talk, this will be my next ride, no software, no bumpers, just me and the outdoor sunshine.

 

[Tom]

Please, if you disagree with something, name it!

Concerning software problems, I rather have those than having to replace the engine. I must admit I do not have experience with software trouble in cars but with motorcycles. It happened not only once that I could surprise my local mechanic with information (I got from the internet) on the correct mapping number and the problem was gone but maybe with cars it's not that easy.

 

[bunburry]

Please, if you disagree with something, name it!

Concerning software problems, I rather have those than having to replace the engine. I must admit I do not have experience with software trouble in cars but with motorcycles. It happened not only once that I could surprise my local mechanic with information (I got from the internet) on the correct mapping number and the problem was gone but maybe with cars it's not that easy.

THe difference is with cars its not just one system or ECU, there are often multiple modules controlling their own domains of operation, which is where the madness comes in.

I don't fancy software issues simply because they are unpredictable. you grenade an engine that is straight forward, your software fuqs off and refuses to rectify, well thats a whole host of new questions that aren't as easy to trace...

 

[raz-0]

THe difference is with cars its not just one system or ECU, there are often multiple modules controlling their own domains of operation, which is where the madness comes in.

I don't fancy software issues simply because they are unpredictable. you grenade an engine that is straight forward, your software fuqs off and refuses to rectify, well thats a whole host of new questions that aren't as easy to trace...

Software issues can be diagnosed just fine. The problem is unless your vehicle has an enthusiast following, end users are never going to have interactions with anyone who can do it properly.

Your engine spins a bearing under warranty, the mechanic can tell you if it is covered and the time to get it back on the road. The only things that can make it worse than it was is if they do that in a piss poor manner, don't do the work well, or can't get parts in a timely manner. With a software bug, they can look for a TSB for the issue, and see if there is a software update on hand that addresses it. They can punt and jsut flash a newer software version and hope it helps, which if it didn't you feel like the vehicle is unreliable or the techs don't know how to fix anything. Or they can tell you it's working as designed and there's nothing they can do at this time other than reset the computer. Which is more or less arguing with you that the car should actually work right.

 

[tony]

I give up, I'm tired of all this poor quality talk, this will be my next ride, no software, no bumpers, just me and the outdoor sunshine.

I needs a hayabusa engine

 

[Tom]

Well, no news is good news in this thread.

I guess if there will be any major software problems, this will come to light already during the first 1-5,000 km. Other than with mechanical problems, which due to wearing and abrasion appear after maybe 30,000 km or later, software errors are not that time-dependent. Hence, if I don’t hear anything on that in the next few months from now, it will be a good sign for reliability of the Renegade.

 

[CalTom]

So are there any known NOGOs (engine failure, rust, chassis problems etc.) that should prevent me from buying the Jeep Renegade?

Maybe your not aware but the Renegade just started sales in Europe with only a handful of delivers, that is the only place it is currently on sale. THERE HAS BEEN NO TIME FOR ANYONE TO DETERMINE IF THE THERE ARE ANY ISSUES SPECIFIC TO THE Renegade yet.

Well, no news is good news in this thread.

Well OF COURSE, there is no news, the Renegade just started sales in Europe with only a handful of delivers, that is the only place it is currently on sale.

I’m starting a new thread here because the FCA Quality Comparison does not come to the point.

The FCA Vehicle Quality Comparison thread cannot come to the point on the Renegade since the Renegade just started sales in Europe with only a handful of delivers, that is the only place it is currently on sale.

FCA Vehicle Quality Comparison
http://www.jeeprenegadeforum.com/fo...sion/5401-fca-vehicle-quality-comparison.html


The point is, BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID, of the LACK OF QUALITY of the FCA products. It is very clear that you can COME TO THE POINT that the demonstrated evidence of the FCA family of products are very suspect. I for one will not ever buy the first year car of any brand, especially FCA. Even then, if I were to buy an FCA product, it WOULD ONLY BE WITH FIGURING IN THE COST OF THE UNLIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY with ZERO deductible.

 

[Tom]

My thread title was asking not specifically for experience with the (of course) brand new Renegade but, as one can read, with major problems with FIAT/JEEP cars.

What I find very useless in the FCA Vehicle Quality Comparison, are the overall criteria for determining quality which often have nothing to do with material quality or durability of the main components of which a FIAT/JEEP consists.

 

[bunburry]

trace the architecture back to its roots (its mostly new but derived from the 500 and 500L). The engines do seem solid though, especially the diesel...

 

[Tom]

The German “TÜV Report 2015” (Technical Inspection Association) is out, giving a summary on testing car reliability for the duration July 2013 - June 2014. Here, 8.5 million cars and 226 different models have been tested. Unlike in the FCA Vehicle Quality Comparison where consumers subjectively cause the ranking and judgement is often affected by “irrelevant” categories such as “unresponsive touch screens, inability to sync smart phones with Blue-tooth or the docking port, and trouble in getting the voice-command system to recognize verbal commands“, the German TÜV report solely focuses on problems that are relevant for safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Überwachungsverein#T.C3.9CV_for_road_vehicles

In Germany every car needs to get every two years a TÜV badge which is only issued, if the car fulfills all essential requirements for driving safety and environmental pollution standards.

The ranking of the following vehicle survey reflects these demands for cars of different age classes.

http://www.tuv.com/media/germany/tuev_report/TUEV_Report_Gewinner_und_Verlierer_2015.pdf

In the table, the headings “2- und 3-jährige” means cars checked have been 2-3 years old. There are categories from 2-3 up to 10-11 years old.

What I found disappointing from this survey is that the Fiat 500 ranked 122 among the 2-3 year old cars and place 86 among the 4-5 year old cars. Based on this objective car survey undertaken not by consumers but by official German authorities, the Fiat 500 basis of the new Jeep Renegade seems to have major problems in terms of durability and reliability.

 

[ManEater666]

ok the TÜV here is independant ... but you have to know that all Failure lists by examintion of the car mostly show up the reliability of the owner ...

Persons doing all for their ride and putting everything on the machine like Premium Brands VW, Porsche, BMW Mercedes and so on will get their cars checked before they went to TÜV.

Other people who just want to drive care less about technical things and fix it when the car dealer they go for inspection or the TÜV says that something has to be fixed ...

For example you don´t get your inspection batch from the TÜV if the lights for the licence plate is broken ... is that car now not reliable?

 

[Tom]

You are saying, the independent car reliability judged by the TÜV would primarily depend on owners carefulness and this in turn would be strongly positively correlated with price of the car.

I don’t think so. The VW you mention is not a premium car but as the name says, a Volkswagen for “ordinary” people. If you earn only half of the yearly salary of a Porsche owner and you can just afford buying a new Mazda or Opel, this car will mean something to you and you will, as with a Porsche or Mercedes, go into the garage before you need to get a TÜV badge. You will do that because the per hour labor costs will be much lower than for a Mercedes inspection and you do like your new Mazda that you have so hard worked for.

Also, please look into the 8-9 year old category: you will find lots of VWs, Mercedes and even Volvo in the lower orange to red third of the table. This rather means that there is variation in reliability (e.g. rust susceptibility) even within one and the same brand.

 

[ManEater666]

no ... 8-9 years change just mean that the owners have changed ... the curios ones have bought a new car and then the car is sold to second hand and third hand owners who don´t care about the car and just fill it up with Gas/Diesel and ride ...

People earning only half of the price a Porsche per year as you guess usually ride a second or third hand car and don´t buy new ones ...

 

[Tom]

Funny argumentation....Who then buys all the new middle class cars, which make up the majority of the car sales??

I have, for example, one of these since more then ten years.

 

[Reg]

I give up, I'm tired of all this poor quality talk, this will be my next ride, no software, no bumpers, just me and the outdoor sunshine.

Actually, I am glad that this forum allows open discussion of FCA's quality perceptions and so forth. So many product forums discourage or ban any discussion that may be perceived as negative. It seems folks hate hearing negativity after they drop hard-earned money.