[Trevinator1990]

just found out that they make these tonight!!! looks like a nice upgrade to the reverse lighting!

 

[Mrsig]

Yep they have been around for a few years now. When you get them post up some photos.

 

[rsanges]

I think you need to come up with your own interface to our North American spec Renegades. You won't simply find a place to plug in the harness.

 

[puddlesplasher]

I am reluctant to buy without having someone test them and show us the pictures. My forum friend Rsanges has the right idea but I will follow the topic happy in the knowledge that someone is trying to make a change to the bog standard lights and lamps.

 

[Marek K]

Yeah... It's interesting that the listing says they'll function as rear fog lights, as well as back-up lights.

Of course, European-market Renegades only have one back-up light, on the passenger side; they have a rear fog light instead, on the driver's side. So still only one light on each side. I'm sure the wiring is the same as ours -- the control module is just coded to send the correct voltage to the correct light.

So I'd assume these would work as just back-up lights, with no rear fog light function without additional wiring.

I'd love to hear how they work...

 

[sgt_raffie]

Once my Deserthawk lands I will be forced to add fog/reverse lights to pass the tests. Like the look of these so I might give them a try

 

[Marek K]

Once my Deserthawk lands I will be forced to add fog/reverse lights to pass the tests. Like the look of these so I might give them a try

Well, the requirement in the EU is for just one rear fog light (on the driver's side), and one backup/reverse light.

The U.S. Renegade will have two backup lights. As I wrote above, I'm certain the left backup light uses the same wiring as the Euro rear fog light -- so what you'll need to do is change the driver's-side white backup light for a red rear fog light.

But there's more. You'd need a Euro light switch that has the rear fog light position, unless you want a tacky (and illegal) separate switch.

Another requirement, as you know (in Germany, and I'm sure in the rest of the EU), is that you have to have an amber rear fog light icon...

...in plain sight of the driver. I suspect the icon is already there on the U.S. dashboard; it would need recoding of the control module to enable it. I'm not aware as of now how to do that, or using what...

Unless the safety inspections in Poland are, um, looser than in Germany...?

 

[sgt_raffie]

Tacky and illegal aftermarket light switch is legal here . EU does not have such precise laws (yet) to tell the member countries what kind of light switch is legal...
The dashboard is the same on both US and European Renegades (bar the MPH/KPH). Currently, the best software for those operations is AlfaOBD. You need an OBD interface that talks to all 3 CAN channels or adapters to make a simple ELM-based OBD interface do that.
As to safety inspections - depends...but definitely looser than in Germany. Germans are like really, seriously bad with their ordung. Eg, none of the lift kits would cut it there as I don't think any is TUV-approved.
I know I would only need the foglight but I like the looks of LED lights there and bright reversing light would be good. Unless of course, my importer has their own way of doing this...

 

[Marek K]

Tacky and illegal aftermarket light switch is legal here . EU does not have such precise laws (yet) to tell the member countries what kind of light switch is legal...

Well, I think the EU (or at least Germany, which would probably mean the EU) does have requirements for the light switch, at least as far as the rear fog light is concerned.

Europeans are generally extremely concerned about glare, and particularly glare from rear fog lights. After all, they shine a relatively-powerful light straight back toward the driver behind; and regulations want to prevent the rear fog light from inadvertently being left on once it's not foggy any more. Stock switches in Europe are normally designed so that the rear fog light switches off automatically when the headlights are switched off; and require a positive decision to switch the rear fog light on again.

 

[sgt_raffie]

Well, I think the EU (or at least Germany, which would probably mean the EU) does have requirements for the light switch, at least as far as the rear fog light is concerned.

Not that I`m aware of. Periodic testing is covered by Directive 2009/45/EC which is not that detailed and leaves a lot of leeway for member-states. There are minimum requirements (and the fog light switch is not covered by those). Switch operation has to meet certain requirements which the directive describes as (Italics bold mine): Requirements’ are laid down by type-approval at the date of approval (US Type approval), first registration or first entry into service (US first registration) as well as by retrofitting obligations or by national legislation in the country of registration.

German regulations concerning periodic testing are not an "average" example of EC regulations as these are on a very strict side. Mind You there are almost 1500 documents concerning the "fog light" phrase so it MIGHT be the case in some member-states. It is not the case in Poland and I can (if I want to) use a house light switch for fogs. I will most likely get a European switch for the looks.

Note that we are only talking about periodic testings. Type-approval (homologation) regulations are much more precise but do not apply in this case (at least in Poland and by the Vienna convention this makes it legal in all signatories of the said convention). There is no need for me to meet those regs when individually importing the vehicle from outside the EU. While there is a LOT of push to regulate pretty much everything including the size and shape of the banana EU is not there yet.

I never mentioned this Marek, but I used to modify cars for a living for a few years so had to be quite current with all the regs.

 

[Marek K]

OK, I'm most familiar with auto lighting regulations in Germany. I kind of assumed that since German regulations (like the requirement for at least one rear fog light on all new cars since 1991) have spread into the rest of the EU, that other details associated with lighting have done the same.

Poland does require at least one rear fog light now, right? Since what year? Like Germany, I'm certain Poland requires that vehicles imported from the U.S. have to retrofitted with rear fog lights. So those requirements have become more-or-less standard across the EU.

How about using rear fog lights? Germany prohibits their use if visibility is more than 50m; with that visibility, speed is also limited to 50 km/h. Is that the case in Poland?

I even see references now that the use of rear fog lights is mandatory in Germany if visibility is less than 50m, I assume since pretty-much all cars have them now. Though I can't find a specific regulation reference (StVO).

The use of a rear fog light is extremely sensitive for the Germans. So regarding the indicator light for the rear fog light, I know there's a German regulation requiring that it be "in direct sight of the driver" -- that means it can't be just a small icon down on the switch; it has to be somewhere on the dashboard in plain sight. Again, same in Poland?

As far as German cars are concerned, I'm most familiar with VWs since the late 1990s. And I always thought that other German cars -- and therefore European cars -- were designed the same way. On VWs the light switch is rotary, on the lower-left side of the dashboard. You can only switch the rear fog light on -- and the front fog lights if so equipped -- by pulling the rotary switch out when at least the parking lights are on. that is, there's no way to turn the rear fog light on by itself.

Then, when you rotate the switch to turn the headlights or parking lights off, the switch cams back forward to also switch the rear fog light off. So t here's no way to accidentally leave the rear fog light on for the next trip.

I'd be interested to hear how that works on the Euro-spec Renegades...

 

[sgt_raffie]

Poland does require at least one rear fog light now, right? Since what year? Like Germany, I'm certain Poland requires that vehicles imported from the U.S. have to retrofitted with rear fog lights. So those requirements have become more-or-less standard across the EU.

This is correct and the reason why I got interested in the lights mentioned by the OP. As long as I have reverse AND rear fogs I can have either one fog, located on the driver's side or two fogs.
As to the timeline, it would most likely be around 1997 when there was a major law-change of the road traffic laws.
More-or-less is the key word here .

How about using rear fog lights? Germany prohibits their use if visibility is more than 50m; with that visibility, speed is also limited to 50 km/h. Is that the case in Poland?

50m correct, 50 km/h - not the case here. There is no visibility conditions depending speed limit. It can be set by light signs above the motorway for example but nothing like You mention.

I even see references now that the use of rear fog lights is mandatory in Germany if visibility is less than 50m, I assume since pretty-much all cars have them now. Though I can't find a specific regulation reference (StVO).

Again, the same. Mandatory if visibility is below 50m. Modifiers apply for build-up terrain, special signs, etc.

The use of a rear fog light is extremely sensitive for the Germans. So regarding the indicator light for the rear fog light, I know there's a German regulation requiring that it be "in direct sight of the driver" -- that means it can't be just a small icon down on the switch; it has to be somewhere on the dashboard in plain sight. Again, same in Poland?

Indicator/switch. Not the case here. New cars will most likely have it to comply with the laws of most member-states but for retrofits, this is not a requirement. Eg. I`ve seen more than one Renegade, with inspection passed, that had the rear fog light switch located by the driver's left knee, on the panel there. Seen plenty of other cars with retrofitted fogs with simple metal toggle switches places in various places. While our inspections are not as strict as German ones if something is in the law, the inspector will pretty much require it. Same situation with the front recovery hooks. It is legal for me to have them on the Renegade as it was a factory equipment and the car was type-approved with them.

As far as German cars are concerned, I'm most familiar with VWs since the late 1990s. And I always thought that other German cars -- and therefore European cars -- were designed the same way. On VWs the light switch is rotary, on the lower-left side of the dashboard. You can only switch the rear fog light on -- and the front fog lights if so equipped -- by pulling the rotary switch out when at least the parking lights are on. that is, there's no way to turn the rear fog light on by itself.

Then, when you rotate the switch to turn the headlights or parking lights off, the switch cams back forward to also switch the rear fog light off. So there's no way to accidentally leave the rear fog light on for the next trip.

I have I Tiguan so yep, I`m familiar with this switch. But again, new cars will have such arrangements to comply with most of the member-states laws. For retrofits in Poland, this is not required.

I'd be interested to hear how that works on the Euro-spec Renegades...

Once the car lands, I will have a look at the technical side of making it compliant with Polish regs.

EU law is far from homogenous. Don`t have to look further at the UK when it was a member-state. Some things allowed in the UK would not fly in Poland (for example the whole Kit-cat/self-constructed vehicles thing - NO way in hell to do it legally here). Another example is the GVW. In Germany, it can be changed with a proper inspection. Here in Poland - untouchable.
So as stated, there is quite a bit of difference between member-states regulations and as long as minimal EU requirements are met by the member-state inspection laws it`s ok.

 

[Marek K]

So, going a bit off-topic... Get ready for questions. You mentioned "homologation." How exactly does that work?

My understanding is that it's approving a vehicle component (glass, lighting) in one country; and having that approval be valid in all EU countries.

It's what we Americans inaccurately refer to as the "E-code"... as in "E-Code headlights." The circled E with a number, signifying the country where that component was first approved.

E1 is Germany; E2 is France... E20 is Poland.

So a lot of VW parts are, not-surprisingly, marked E1. Here's the top edge of the left-side bi-xenon headlight on my 2009 VW GLI (Jetta):

The "1.0%" marking shows at what angle downward the beams have to be adjusted. I have no idea what the "PL" means...

But the windshield was apparently homologated in Spain (E9):

On my Italian-built Trailhawk, the windshield was apparently homologated in Belgium (E6):

I've got the optional bi-LED headlights. I can't find any homologation marks on those. Here's where they should be, I think:

AL logo for Automotive Lighting (Magnetti Marelli). Same 1% guidance for beam aiming. And even a "PL." (What does the circled-CCC mean, like on the windshield glass?

But why no E-code homologation marking? Does that mean our North American bi-xenon lights aren't approved in the EU? Why wouldn't they be, if they're an option over there?

So... Does an E-code mean that the component is approved everywhere in the EU?

Is this the same as homologation?

Does homologation only apply to OEM parts, that are on the vehicle from the factory? I know that in Germany, legal aftermarket parts have to have a TÜV approval...

 

[sgt_raffie]

I don`t have decent knowledge of automotive manufacturing homologation. I know a bit about small manufacturing homologation.
Codes are correct - Ex where x denotes where it was homologated.
Homologated in let's say Spain does not necessarily mean manufactured in Spain.
PL-I have no idea. I know PL is used in the household light industry to denote the type of bulb used in the fixture.
CCC is a Chinese equivalent of Your DOT approval.
No E-code on headlights - American uses symmetrical lights in the vehicle. Europe uses light that is asymmetric. Hence the USA headlight will be legal in Europe and vice versa. I will have to change the headlights when the car arrives.

As to E-code denoting approval everywhere in the EU. That is somewhat correct (there is a huge document be EU on homologation which regulates this all). However, there is the second bottom in this. For automotive manufacturers (special kind of manufacturing with separate laws) the light is not only homologated as a single unit but ALSO as a part of a vehicle. So let`s say I want to change the seats in my car. It does not matter that I change to seats with E-code as these would not be homologated FOR the vehicle I want to put this in. If this is enforceable on "end-user" is questionable.

Homologation does not only apply to parts fitted in the factory but also to other parts. Let's say I want to produce a winch-bumper for the Renegade. To make it legal for road use I would have to obtain homologation documents. This is a VERY VERY complicated and prohibitively expensive undertaking. Let`s just say that even giants like ARB do not sell homologated bumpers in the EU (even if dealers claim otherwise). It`s cheaper to go down the TUV route or similar.

TUV is German approval which carries some weight around here in Europe (due to the strict nature of German law) and is generally accepted. It does not mean the same as "homologation".

Sorry for the delay but the sun is finally shining and I`m running around the yard like a headless chicken trying to do as many projects as I can before the weather turns sour again..

 

[rsanges]

This thread is way off-topic, but I find it way more interesting.

 

[Marek K]

This thread is way off-topic, but I find it way more interesting.

More interesting than what? It actually relates to the original topic, as far as whether these rear bumper lights would be legal in Europe. So we shall go on...

I know PL is used in the household light industry to denote the type of bulb used in the fixture.

Well, that can't be what this "PL" refers to. The bulbs in my VW headlights are D2S HID, and the bulbs in the Trailhawk are LED...

CCC is a Chinese equivalent of Your DOT approval.

Or of your ECE code? Well, that's reassuring to know... that these windshields and the Trailhawk headlights are good-to-go in China. I was worried there for a while...

No E-code on headlights - American uses symmetrical lights in the vehicle. Europe uses light that is asymmetric. Hence the USA headlight will be legal in Europe and vice versa. I will have to change the headlights when the car arrives.

It's not quite as simple as that any more. Many DOT- or SAE-approved headlights have had asymmetrical beam patterns for decades now, quite similar to Europeans'. They're technically designated VOL, VOR, and maybe others. The cut-off isn't as sharp as ECE headlights; because DOT has actually encouraged some light "leakage" upward, in order to (theoretically) illuminate overhead signs. (* cough BS cough *)

Do ECE regulations actually require asymmetrical beam patterns? Because there have been various types in Europe... like the original pattern for halogen headlights, where the cut-off would go diagonally and continuously up and to the right (for right-hand-traffic countries) from the center point -- like this:

Then there's the "stepped" pattern for HID headlights, where the pattern goes diagonally for a short bit, then levels out again horizontally:

I assume the Renegade you're getting from the U.S. has the OEM reflector headlights? Oh yes, you'll have to get those changed, because they're really poor -- even for American headlights. Plus they won't have manual range adjustment, which isn't require here for halogen headlights.

But my LED headlights are quite good -- comparable to the bi-xenon HIDs on my VW GLI. The beam pattern has a sharp cut-off, but it goes horizontally all the way from left ot right -- symmetric. The cut-off isn't quite razor-straight -- it's a bit "bumpy" -- but that may be specific to LED headlights and how the optics work. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't meet ECE regulations, unless ECE regulations actually require an asymmetric beam pattern...

 

[sgt_raffie]

More interesting than what? It actually relates to the original topic, as far as whether these rear bumper lights would be legal in Europe. So we shall go on...



Well, that can't be what this "PL" refers to. The bulbs in my VW headlights are D2S HID, and the bulbs in the Trailhawk are LED...



Or of your ECE code? Well, that's reassuring to know... that these windshields and the Trailhawk headlights are good-to-go in China. I was worried there for a while...



It's not quite as simple as that any more. Many DOT- or SAE-approved headlights have had asymmetrical beam patterns for decades now, quite similar to Europeans'. They're technically designated VOL, VOR, and maybe others. The cut-off isn't as sharp as ECE headlights; because DOT has actually encouraged some light "leakage" upward, in order to (theoretically) illuminate overhead signs. (* cough BS cough *)

Do ECE regulations actually require asymmetrical beam patterns? Because there have been various types in Europe... like the original pattern for halogen headlights, where the cut-off would go diagonally and continuously up and to the right (for right-hand-traffic countries) from the center point -- like this:

View attachment 2396352256

Then there's the "stepped" pattern for HID headlights, where the pattern goes diagonally for a short bit, then levels out again horizontally:

View attachment 2396352257

I assume the Renegade you're getting from the U.S. has the OEM reflector headlights? Oh yes, you'll have to get those changed, because they're really poor -- even for American headlights. Plus they won't have manual range adjustment, which isn't require here for halogen headlights.

But my LED headlights are quite good -- comparable to the bi-xenon HIDs on my VW GLI. The beam pattern has a sharp cut-off, but it goes horizontally all the way from left ot right -- symmetric. The cut-off isn't quite razor-straight -- it's a bit "bumpy" -- but that may be specific to LED headlights and how the optics work. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't meet ECE regulations, unless ECE regulations actually require an asymmetric beam pattern...

Yes. Asymetic beam pattern is requried and I cant remember owning a car without asymetric headlight. Even the old Polonez I had as a first car had asymetric headlights. The cut off "style" is less of an issue, its the direction of the beam which has to go to the "offside" and light up the curb. And this is quite a thing when inspections are carried out.

I will dig deeper into the headlight markings concerning the PL stamp.

Lack of E markings on Your lights might also be due to economical reasons. It might be more expensive to develope, approve and produce "universal" light for all markets then it is to have 2 for diffrent markets. Are vehicle leveling systems and headlight washers required for xenon and led lights in US? Here both are required (unless the output is below certain lumen level but then its pointleds to have them).

 

[Marek K]

I've moved the discussion about ECE approval and specifically headlights to a separate thread:

North American-Spec Renegades and European/International Regulations | Jeep Renegade Forum

Meantime I'd like to bring this thread back to the combination back-up and rear fog lights that OP referred to.

We of course don't have any requirement for a rear fog light here -- We don't think the fog is seldom as thick or widespread as in Europe -- some would disagree with me.

However, I've driven in heavy snow many times where I was glad I'd retrofitted rear fog lights on our Mk5 VWs. I'd be eager to look onto an "OEM-plus" way to retrofit one or two rear fog lights to my 2021 Trailhawk.

I don't want to "ghetto-rig" this, though. I'd want a stock European light switch with the fog light position. I'd also like to have the amber front fog light indicator that I assume you European guys have on your instrument panel.

With VWs, at least Mk5's, you needed European tail lights with the integrated rear fog light on the left side. You also needed a Euro light switch with the rear fog light position. Other than that, the wiring was already there -- the European rear fog light used the same +12v wire that the North American left back-up light used. You did need to do some minor wiring re-pinning at the Central electronics Module, and you needed to re-code the car so the computer knew what to do. I would hope the same sort of procedure would be possible with the Italian-built Renegade.

The gold-standard tool for VW diagnostics and re-coding is Ross-Tech's VCDS (aka VAG-COM). Procedures for using that are fairly well-known.

I know that Renegades can use AlfaOBD as a diagnostics tool. Can you use that to re-code onboard computers too? And does anyone know what the wiring looks like with the European rear fog light?

Should I have searched?

 

[sgt_raffie]

I know that Renegades can use AlfaOBD as a diagnostics tool. Can you use that to re-code onboard computers too? And does anyone know what the wiring looks like with the European rear fog light?

I will answer all this once my Rene lands.
As to AlfaOBD it`s way less straightforward than VAGCom. From research, operations on the Renegade are also different and less...hmm..obvious. Also, there is the case of the interface. With simple OBD You can only access a couple of main modules. To "talk" to lights, You need an adapter that talks to other CAN channels. There is also the SGW on newer vehicles that will stop You from making changes unless You use dealers' software or SGW bypass module.

 

[Marek K]

As to AlfaOBD it`s way less straightforward than VAGCom.

Yeah, I'm getting that idea.

Of course "simple OBD" is extremely limited; same with VWs. Generic OBD readers will only read common fault codes, and other tools (OBDeleven, Carista) will only perform certain re-coding functions.

I do know that AlfaOBD requires a bypass module. I just haven't seen what else it can or can't do... or how (re-)coding works with the Renegade.

do you have AlfaOBD?