Jeep Renegade Forum banner
1 - 9 of 9 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
Yeah... It's interesting that the listing says they'll function as rear fog lights, as well as back-up lights.

Of course, European-market Renegades only have one back-up light, on the passenger side; they have a rear fog light instead, on the driver's side. So still only one light on each side. I'm sure the wiring is the same as ours -- the control module is just coded to send the correct voltage to the correct light.

So I'd assume these would work as just back-up lights, with no rear fog light function without additional wiring.

I'd love to hear how they work...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
Once my Deserthawk lands I will be forced to add fog/reverse lights to pass the tests. Like the look of these so I might give them a try
Well, the requirement in the EU is for just one rear fog light (on the driver's side), and one backup/reverse light.

The U.S. Renegade will have two backup lights. As I wrote above, I'm certain the left backup light uses the same wiring as the Euro rear fog light -- so what you'll need to do is change the driver's-side white backup light for a red rear fog light.

But there's more. You'd need a Euro light switch that has the rear fog light position, unless you want a tacky (and illegal) separate switch.

Another requirement, as you know (in Germany, and I'm sure in the rest of the EU), is that you have to have an amber rear fog light icon...
2396352223

...in plain sight of the driver. I suspect the icon is already there on the U.S. dashboard; it would need recoding of the control module to enable it. I'm not aware as of now how to do that, or using what...

Unless the safety inspections in Poland are, um, looser than in Germany...? ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
Tacky and illegal aftermarket light switch is legal here ;). EU does not have such precise laws (yet) to tell the member countries what kind of light switch is legal...
Well, I think the EU (or at least Germany, which would probably mean the EU) does have requirements for the light switch, at least as far as the rear fog light is concerned.

Europeans are generally extremely concerned about glare, and particularly glare from rear fog lights. After all, they shine a relatively-powerful light straight back toward the driver behind; and regulations want to prevent the rear fog light from inadvertently being left on once it's not foggy any more. Stock switches in Europe are normally designed so that the rear fog light switches off automatically when the headlights are switched off; and require a positive decision to switch the rear fog light on again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
OK, I'm most familiar with auto lighting regulations in Germany. I kind of assumed that since German regulations (like the requirement for at least one rear fog light on all new cars since 1991) have spread into the rest of the EU, that other details associated with lighting have done the same.

Poland does require at least one rear fog light now, right? Since what year? Like Germany, I'm certain Poland requires that vehicles imported from the U.S. have to retrofitted with rear fog lights. So those requirements have become more-or-less standard across the EU.

How about using rear fog lights? Germany prohibits their use if visibility is more than 50m; with that visibility, speed is also limited to 50 km/h. Is that the case in Poland?

I even see references now that the use of rear fog lights is mandatory in Germany if visibility is less than 50m, I assume since pretty-much all cars have them now. Though I can't find a specific regulation reference (StVO).

The use of a rear fog light is extremely sensitive for the Germans. So regarding the indicator light for the rear fog light, I know there's a German regulation requiring that it be "in direct sight of the driver" -- that means it can't be just a small icon down on the switch; it has to be somewhere on the dashboard in plain sight. Again, same in Poland?

As far as German cars are concerned, I'm most familiar with VWs since the late 1990s. And I always thought that other German cars -- and therefore European cars -- were designed the same way. On VWs the light switch is rotary, on the lower-left side of the dashboard. You can only switch the rear fog light on -- and the front fog lights if so equipped -- by pulling the rotary switch out when at least the parking lights are on. that is, there's no way to turn the rear fog light on by itself.

Then, when you rotate the switch to turn the headlights or parking lights off, the switch cams back forward to also switch the rear fog light off. So t here's no way to accidentally leave the rear fog light on for the next trip.

I'd be interested to hear how that works on the Euro-spec Renegades...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
So, going a bit off-topic... Get ready for questions. You mentioned "homologation." How exactly does that work?

My understanding is that it's approving a vehicle component (glass, lighting) in one country; and having that approval be valid in all EU countries.

It's what we Americans inaccurately refer to as the "E-code"... as in "E-Code headlights." The circled E with a number, signifying the country where that component was first approved.

E1 is Germany; E2 is France... E20 is Poland. :)

So a lot of VW parts are, not-surprisingly, marked E1. Here's the top edge of the left-side bi-xenon headlight on my 2009 VW GLI (Jetta):

2396352224


The "1.0%" marking shows at what angle downward the beams have to be adjusted. I have no idea what the "PL" means... ;)

But the windshield was apparently homologated in Spain (E9):

2396352226


On my Italian-built Trailhawk, the windshield was apparently homologated in Belgium (E6):

2396352225


I've got the optional bi-LED headlights. I can't find any homologation marks on those. Here's where they should be, I think:

2396352227


AL logo for Automotive Lighting (Magnetti Marelli). Same 1% guidance for beam aiming. And even a "PL." (What does the circled-CCC mean, like on the windshield glass?

But why no E-code homologation marking? Does that mean our North American bi-xenon lights aren't approved in the EU? Why wouldn't they be, if they're an option over there?

So... Does an E-code mean that the component is approved everywhere in the EU?

Is this the same as homologation?

Does homologation only apply to OEM parts, that are on the vehicle from the factory? I know that in Germany, legal aftermarket parts have to have a TÜV approval...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
This thread is way off-topic, but I find it way more interesting.
More interesting than what? :) It actually relates to the original topic, as far as whether these rear bumper lights would be legal in Europe. So we shall go on...

I know PL is used in the household light industry to denote the type of bulb used in the fixture.
Well, that can't be what this "PL" refers to. The bulbs in my VW headlights are D2S HID, and the bulbs in the Trailhawk are LED...

CCC is a Chinese equivalent of Your DOT approval.
Or of your ECE code? Well, that's reassuring to know... that these windshields and the Trailhawk headlights are good-to-go in China. I was worried there for a while... ;)

No E-code on headlights - American uses symmetrical lights in the vehicle. Europe uses light that is asymmetric. Hence the USA headlight will be legal in Europe and vice versa. I will have to change the headlights when the car arrives.
It's not quite as simple as that any more. Many DOT- or SAE-approved headlights have had asymmetrical beam patterns for decades now, quite similar to Europeans'. They're technically designated VOL, VOR, and maybe others. The cut-off isn't as sharp as ECE headlights; because DOT has actually encouraged some light "leakage" upward, in order to (theoretically) illuminate overhead signs. (* cough BS cough *)

Do ECE regulations actually require asymmetrical beam patterns? Because there have been various types in Europe... like the original pattern for halogen headlights, where the cut-off would go diagonally and continuously up and to the right (for right-hand-traffic countries) from the center point -- like this:

2396352256


Then there's the "stepped" pattern for HID headlights, where the pattern goes diagonally for a short bit, then levels out again horizontally:

2396352257


I assume the Renegade you're getting from the U.S. has the OEM reflector headlights? Oh yes, you'll have to get those changed, because they're really poor -- even for American headlights. Plus they won't have manual range adjustment, which isn't require here for halogen headlights.

But my LED headlights are quite good -- comparable to the bi-xenon HIDs on my VW GLI. The beam pattern has a sharp cut-off, but it goes horizontally all the way from left ot right -- symmetric. The cut-off isn't quite razor-straight -- it's a bit "bumpy" -- but that may be specific to LED headlights and how the optics work. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't meet ECE regulations, unless ECE regulations actually require an asymmetric beam pattern...
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
I've moved the discussion about ECE approval and specifically headlights to a separate thread:

North American-Spec Renegades and European/International Regulations | Jeep Renegade Forum

Meantime I'd like to bring this thread back to the combination back-up and rear fog lights that OP referred to.

We of course don't have any requirement for a rear fog light here -- We don't think the fog is seldom as thick or widespread as in Europe -- some would disagree with me.

However, I've driven in heavy snow many times where I was glad I'd retrofitted rear fog lights on our Mk5 VWs. I'd be eager to look onto an "OEM-plus" way to retrofit one or two rear fog lights to my 2021 Trailhawk.

I don't want to "ghetto-rig" this, though. I'd want a stock European light switch with the fog light position. I'd also like to have the amber front fog light indicator that I assume you European guys have on your instrument panel.

With VWs, at least Mk5's, you needed European tail lights with the integrated rear fog light on the left side. You also needed a Euro light switch with the rear fog light position. Other than that, the wiring was already there -- the European rear fog light used the same +12v wire that the North American left back-up light used. You did need to do some minor wiring re-pinning at the Central electronics Module, and you needed to re-code the car so the computer knew what to do. I would hope the same sort of procedure would be possible with the Italian-built Renegade.

The gold-standard tool for VW diagnostics and re-coding is Ross-Tech's VCDS (aka VAG-COM). Procedures for using that are fairly well-known.

I know that Renegades can use AlfaOBD as a diagnostics tool. Can you use that to re-code onboard computers too? And does anyone know what the wiring looks like with the European rear fog light?

Should I have searched? :unsure:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
As to AlfaOBD it`s way less straightforward than VAGCom.
Yeah, I'm getting that idea.

Of course "simple OBD" is extremely limited; same with VWs. Generic OBD readers will only read common fault codes, and other tools (OBDeleven, Carista) will only perform certain re-coding functions.

I do know that AlfaOBD requires a bypass module. I just haven't seen what else it can or can't do... or how (re-)coding works with the Renegade.

do you have AlfaOBD?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,567 Posts
Well, I took another detailed look at the Amazon listing for those lights. Several observations:

First, the listing says that the lights are "[e]xact fit and direct replacement: Replace the stock red reflector and function as add-on rear fog light and backup lights."

I'd say that was not exactly accurate. Most North American-spec Renegades come with two reflectors in the bumper, since all the lighting (to include back-up lights) are part of the tail light clusters. So I assume there's no wiring behind the bumper. So any wiring would have to be run there. Unless there's loose wiring there, that's energized? Doesn't seem likely.

The only NA-spec Renegades that would have any kind of wiring there are vehicles with LED tail lights; since the tail lights are all-red, the back-up lights (and reflectors) are in the rear bumper. So these lights would probably plug into there; but would only provide white back-up lighting.

That's confirmed by several of the customer comments, that say that people had to run wiring from the tail lights. Which tells me they wired these to act either as additional brake lights, or additional back-up lights; not as rear fog lights.

Second, my USB Service manual shows that here's what the back of the OEM back-up light looks like, on Renegades that have the back-up lights in the bumpers:

2396352273


Seems to be, not surprisingly, a two-pin connector; one for +12v, and one for ground. That means the existing vehicle wiring only provides voltage for back-up lighting there; not "rear fog light and backup lights," as the listing claims. Unless the Renegade is a European-market model, where the wiring on the driver's side would indeed be for a rear fog light; but even then, the wiring on the other side would only run a back-up light -- only one.

Third, that would seems to be confirmed by images in the listing. One shows the backs of the lights and their wiring harness (it's unclear to me why the harnesses are so long, unless they're meant to somehow reach the tail lights):

2396352274


The connectors are labeled that one is for a rear fog light, and one is for a back-up light. Huh? I thought these lights would provide both functions.

and indeed each connector appears to be two-pin, which seems to be confirmed by another image:

2396352275


The connectors are female, and look identical to those on the OEM back-up lights. But with only two wires each, that tells me each light can only have one function -- either as a white back-up light, or as a red rear fog light. Even assuming the Renegade's wiring harness could be coded to provide the correct signals on the respective wires (back-up light on one side, and rear fog light on the other), I can't tell how these lights know how to light up when they see +12v on the hot wire -- white or red?. Maybe that dark round area on each light is a manual switch that determines what color it lights up...?

And several users have commented that no instructions or wiring diagram are provided.

In any case, this product looks pretty iffy, particularly with the misleading description. Like Mrsig, I too would be interested to hear from anyone who's installed these...but not so much for how they look, but rather how they function...
 
1 - 9 of 9 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top