[Spitfire]

Thanks, raz-0. Really appreciate the explanation of the differences, done without hype or bias.

As you say, there are many different AWD systems. I've owned vehicles with a few different ones, including 4X4 pickups--both solid axle and split axle versions--the old AMC/Jeep Eagle fluid coupling system with CV joints (my 1980 Kammback was one of the best snow cars I've ever driven), and various AWD systems as offered in current SUVs. I'm willing to admit that I'm not really into offroad "four-wheeling"--in this, I'm probably in the majority of Renegade owners. It's not a Wrangler; I see it more as an oversize Fiat Panda, and it's going to be more comparable to a Subaru Impreza.

When I was shopping for a vehicle, I never considered a Wrangler; what I want is a small, fuel-efficient SUV with the capability to travel the odd rough road and get around in the snow. I have no need of a vehicle capable of severe off-road travel. And so yes, I was directly comparing the Renegade to various Subarus, the Mini All4, and several other small SUVs. I did not buy a Renegade because it's a Jeep--if anything, I bought one despite it having the Jeep badge. If it's a "Jeep thing," I guess I don't understand...

 

[elf883]

Where is that bumper available at and I wander what rack is on that renny

crow its from a shop http://zzkustom.com/ they do installs and make custom crap email them and ask them about the setup it looks shweet if u ask me

 

[cailean]

I would argue, similar tires being in use, that the renegade is more capable in the snow and ice than the subie lineup with the exception of the forester.

Very informative reply. I am curious on the difference between the Renegade Trailhawk and Subaru Forester SJ with CVT and with X-Mode. My wife has the Forester and I am thinking of a Rene TH and curious on the differences off road. I am assuming the TH will be better due to the different modes and low 'range' but haven't found anything definite, especially if I include an ADF 2" lift on the Forester and some AT tyres?

 

[BU1tj2]

Difference huh?

The Subaru can not be as good looking as this!!!

errr... if you cant read this roll me over

 

[Nuke8401]

If anyone is interested.
Newer Foresters have X-mode available=a smart AWD system ike the Renegade.

Some junky old foresters. Times 13:40, 21:15 and 24:35

https://expeditionportal.com/a-budget-overlander-forester-part-i-capability/
https://expeditionportal.com/a-budget-overlander-forester-part-ii-protection/
During a recent trip over the Mojave Road the little Foz shattered all doubts with it’s nimble capability. In the sand and washboard it was the speed demon we expected, cruising along comfortably at around 50mph. On the rocky hill climb after Fort Piute, a trail which rates nearly a 3 after recent storms, it was shockingly unstoppable. We managed to run the entire 140-mile trail in under 24 hours (sight-seeing and camping included) without a single issue.
https://expeditionportal.com/a-budget-overlander-forester-part-iii-kitting-it-out/
https://expeditionportal.com/a-subaru-forester-vs-the-mojave-road/

 

[Nuke8401]

I was on the fence with buying a new Renegade but I found a 2010 Forester auto with 33,000 on it for a bargain and it fits my purposes at least as well as a Renegade would. I still like the Renegade but just too many problems in it's short life so far.

 

[BU1tj2]

Nuke, before you decide to buy go to the Subaru forum and poke around in there. It might make you more informed.

A lot of you guys are missing the point here... it is not how fast you cross the trail, it is how long you enjoyed the trail >>> There is a very big difference there my friend !!!

 

[Mr LeRoy]

Beware, long-winded post

First, a petty beef on semantics. It’s a little disingenuous to belabor the point that the Subaru all-wheel-drive system is symmetrical, or that that's truly important, no matter what the advertising says. Sure, it’s generally symmetrical with respect to left/right layout. But this belies the fact that, while drive from the engine output shaft to the rear axle is generally along a straight line with left/right symmetry, the drive to the front axle turns through 180 degrees and operates in a lower plane than the engine output shaft and rear axle center line. It’s symmetrical in one plane, but not in another. This also creates a bit of an issue when Subaru makes adverse comparisons to competitors’ AWD systems whose drive “is rerouted multiple times.” It’s hard to argue that a 180-degree turn to serve the front wheels in a Subaru’s driveline isn’t a significant re-routing. Bottom line: to the extent that Subaru symmetry itself is any kind of advantage, it’s very marginal, applies chiefly at theoretical limits and other systems may achieve equal or better results with alternative technologies. YMMV and so on.

But that’s all small beer and niggling over nebulous claims.

As noted in a lengthy and well-written earlier post (hat tip to raz-0), Subaru systems have used a variety of technologies over the years and continue to do so today. Plainly said, there is no single Subaru AWD system. To argue that Subaru AWD is better or worse than Jeep 4x4 is an exercise in nonsense, unless you specify exactly which Subaru system is being compared to exactly which Jeep system. The difference between manual transmission Subaru AWD systems and those on automatic transmission models has also been significant over time. Viscous couplings with a center differential on the manual transmission models have a very different nominal torque distribution than electronically controlled multi-plate couplings (with or without a center differential) on the automatic models. These systems also have different reaction and response characteristics, many of which can be managed for predictive as well as reactive behavior.

The nominal torque split differs among the technologies, the means of distributing and redistributing torque differs, the active or proactive speeds differ, and so on. Thus, it makes no sense – and it’s not accurate -- to speak of Subaru AWD as if it’s all one type, design, or technology.

Oh wait. That’s kind of like Jeep 4x4 or AWD systems, isn’t it? There’s more than one way to skin a cat and both companies (all companies, really) engineer and use systems aimed to fulfill the needs – and the budgets -- that they expect customers to have for different model in their product lineups.

 

[BU1tj2]

Nuke, your video validates my point.... 4x4 is not the same with AWD and that it is apple to oranges in comparrison... can not really compare them. just look at the Subie, can not even go through a foot of uneven pavement. That is not even a boulder!!! Subies are okay in speed on pavement, that's all. The newer version on your video does not have a locker either, it relies on tricked-out computerized trans to stop the other wheel up in the air from spinning..

 

[Nuke8401]

Nuke, your video validates my point.... 4x4 is not the same with AWD and that it is apple to oranges in comparrison... can not really compare them. just look at the Subie, can not even go through a foot of uneven pavement. That is not even a boulder!!! Subies are okay in speed on pavement, that's all. The newer version on your video does not have a locker either, it relies on tricked-out computerized trans to stop the other wheel up in the air from spinning..

Subaru and Renegade are same same in basic function of the AWD systems, both use wheel spin sensors to apply individual brakes to send torque to the wheels with traction. No limited slip or locker in the Renegade and only some older Subarus had a limited slip rear (other than WRX). The Trail Hawk would have a gear ratio advantage in rock crawling. 2017 Forester ground clearance 8.7 inches and with "X-mode" it's AWD system functions better than the standard subaru active drive system.
http://www.planetsubaru.com/subaru-x-mode.htm

http://www.jeep.com/en/4x4/#ActiveDriveLow*ActiveDrive1*

"The Jeep® Active Drive 4x4 System features a rear axle disconnect that only engages when necessary for improved efficiency. A Selec-Terrain® Traction Management System gives you all-weather capability in four modes: Auto, Snow, Sand and Mud. A standard Brake Lock Differential works with the advanced 4x4 System to provide outstanding capability for anything Mother Nature sends your way."

Like I said; Renegade and Forester AWD systems = apples apples, no real difference.

 

[Nuke8401]

And they are both really just "cars" = unibody. The Renegade looks like a "Jeep" but is really just a car with a cool body.

 

[BU1tj2]

I totally forgot, most of you who doubted jeeps plays in pavements.

It's a jeep thing, you won't understand.

 

[raz-0]

Very informative reply. I am curious on the difference between the Renegade Trailhawk and Subaru Forester SJ with CVT and with X-Mode. My wife has the Forester and I am thinking of a Rene TH and curious on the differences off road. I am assuming the TH will be better due to the different modes and low 'range' but haven't found anything definite, especially if I include an ADF 2" lift on the Forester and some AT tyres?

One of my friends bought just such a forester about a month before I bought my renegade. We both cross shopped both platforms.

The first issue that comes up is tires. The goodyear wrangler RS-As may not be great, but the OEM tires on the forester are inappropriate for even light off roading. My friend caused non repairable sidewall damage with some pretty mild curb contact. The tread design was not great either. He upgraded to continental discovere AT3 in 235/60/17, which work pretty well on the platform. The forester does not spend a lot of it's weight budget on quieting the cabin, at least as of 2015. So you pick up a noticable bit of highway drone with them, but it's reasonably.

For off roading, the renny TH brings minimally better ground clearance, skid plates, better approach, breakover and departure angles (30.5/25.7/34.3 respectively for renny TH vs 23/21/25 for forester), and slightly better gearing at the low end (basically falls in between the TH and non TH renny setups). You can also get a winch mount for the renny that will fit a winch rated appropriately rather than just an ATV winch, which is all you can get for the forester that I can tell (you can get a similar hidden but under weight winch for the renegade).

 

[BU1tj2]

And they are both really just "cars" = unibody. The Renegade looks like a "Jeep" but is really just a car with a cool body.

Subaru drivers seeks for destination... the Renegade owners thrives for the journey.

 

[rdsar2k]

I have worked on Subis plenty. Main issue for me is the engine itself. It reminds me of the old Volkswagen air cooled pancake engine. As someone stated it's the most expensive reliable engine they maintained. longest timing belt ive ever seen. None on renni. Impossible spark changes on some models; have to lift motor. Head bolts final torque is like 25 ft pounds then one rotation on bolts;. Low torque and the blow head gaskets on high mileage. No skids on subi; plastic engine skit that easily tears up. No rock rails on subi (have on my desert hawk). I guess from a guy who is hard on his rigs I was looking for something more Jeep than Car.

 

[raz-0]

I have worked on Subis plenty. Main issue for me is the engine itself. It reminds me of the old Volkswagen air cooled pancake engine. As someone stated it's the most expensive reliable engine they maintained. longest timing belt ive ever seen. None on renni. Impossible spark changes on some models; have to lift motor. Head bolts final torque is like 25 ft pounds then one rotation on bolts;. Low torque and the blow head gaskets on high mileage. No skids on subi; plastic engine skit that easily tears up. No rock rails on subi (have on my desert hawk). I guess from a guy who is hard on his rigs I was looking for something more Jeep than Car.

Latest generation of their engine has moved to a timing chain as well.

It's like some big movement in the auto world, going back to timing chains. In the face of stricter CAFE regs. Which is strange because they all said timing belts were to save fuel by reducing rotating mass.

 

[BU1tj2]

Latest generation of their engine has moved to a timing chain as well.

It's like some big movement in the auto world, going back to timing chains. In the face of stricter CAFE regs. Which is strange because they all said timing belts were to save fuel by reducing rotating mass.

Timing chain is better than the belt IMO.

Unfortunately the sport 1.4T manual has the interference engine with the belt not the chains. If only they had the manual in the 2.4L I bought one... and they have the chain as well.

I chose the 1.4T because of the stick... now I regret it because of the problems I am having.

 

[raz-0]

Timing chain is better than the belt IMO.

Unfortunately the sport 1.4T manual has the interference engine with the belt not the chains. If only they had the manual in the 2.4L I bought one... and they have the chain as well.

I chose the 1.4T because of the stick... now I regret it because of the problems I am having.

I think timing chain is a good deal on the durability vs. cost scale. I'm just curious what spurred the industry wide shift. Maybe TCO, and dealer quality. I know I didn't like paying for timing belt replacement, and for some cars it was a crap shoot finding a dealer with a competent tech to do them.

 

[Mhans002]

I recently moved to the country after 2 yrs in the deserts of CA and have a mile long dirt road that gets nasty & ugly 3 seasons out of the year with parts that stay frozen because of tree coverage. I currently drive a Fiat 500L and am looking to upgrade. (Ground clearance is only 144cm compared to 221 of either the renegade or crosstrek) I've narrowed it down to these two. We have plenty of 4x4 vehicles already for farm work but I'm looking for something to fit 3 soon-to-be teenagers & height clearance that won't skid off the road this winter.

 

[TH4x4]

I think timing chain is a good deal on the durability vs. cost scale. I'm just curious what spurred the industry wide shift. Maybe TCO, and dealer quality. I know I didn't like paying for timing belt replacement, and for some cars it was a crap shoot finding a dealer with a competent tech to do them.

The shift is purely for advertising purposes. With a timing belt most have to be replaced in the 60-90k mileage wise. The timing chain is "lifetime" . With a timing chain installed and platinum plugs a manufacture can claim 100,000 miles plus between major services on a vehicle. To a lot of people this may make the difference from buying that cute little Jeep and a comeptitors car that has a timing belt.