SPECIAL ORDER: if you want DIESEL you can Special Order it

32491 Views 56 Replies 22 Participants Last post by raz-0, Jul 12, 2016

CrazySte

Discussion Starter · Dec 1, 2014 (Edited)

HI EVERYBODY,
last WeekEnd i went to the Los Angeles CA Auto Show, and i obviously went to the Jeep Booth where i started chatting with one of the Reps and complaining about the lack of Diesel Option for the Renegade.

Her answer was that impressively a good amount of people asked about a Diesel Renegade at the show, so he doesn't think it's impossible it will be imported in the Future.

BUT THEN... surprise!

One other rep overheard the conversation, he came there and said:

"Look, many people in these years have already special ordered and imported Wrangler Diesel from Europe, i am pretty sure if you ask a Dealership to Special Import a Diesel Renegade, it won't be a problem, provided you will be willing to pay yourself for the import price and customs on top of the Retail Price and wait for all the paperwork to go through..."

So then the conversation went about how much convenient a Diesel Renegade would be even if Diesel price is higher than Gasoline... as long as you do more than 15k miles a year and provided you keep the car for at least 5 years... it's worth the Deal.

If you do more than 20k miles, it becomes a no brainier.

BEWARE, THE REP AT THE SHOW WAS NOT 100% SURE OF THIS INFORMATION

But then, a few days later, i was contacted by the Dealership in my home town in NC... they got my info from the show and they asked me which car we were Interested into...

I told him i wanted a Jeep RENEGADE... Diesel

His answer was that Diesel is not available for the RENEGADE... but then, i told him:

"YES, i am aware of that, but how about special importing one from Europe, where the Renegade is originally built, and bring here one with a 2Liter Diesel... would that be possible?"

The answer was:
"I am pretty sure we've done that in the past with other Jeeps, so it should be possible with the Renegade too, just beware it maybe a considerable price to add to the car, and it may not be worth it considering the Renegade costs less than $25k, but if you really want it, we might be able to do it"

So we left that we will talk about it in January when the Renegade will go on sale in the US... so

THERE IS STILL HOPE

Now we will have to see how much actually is to get the Diesel over here... that's what may be scary.

If the Diesels usually cost $4k more than normal, and you add another $3k to special order it... we are already talking about $7k, and this is talking optimistically...

that would bring us over the $30k barrier, and worst case, the $35k budget limit we have.

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?

To me it's still a great new that we can Special Order it... considering my Girlfriend drives well over 20k miles a Year, and we plan on keeping this car for a long time... i would be willing to pay more than 30k for a Diesel Renegade

let's hope for the best
CIAO

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raz-0

· #6 · Dec 1, 2014

If the eu vehicle is the same as the us, it makes the crash test bit of importing easier. Emissions would be the hard part, and it doesn't matter what the eu specs are. The only thing eu emissions testing might get you (well, fca) are lab verified numbers on sufficient samples to meet the import requirements.

For off road use only, import would be cake.

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raz-0

· #18 · Mar 4, 2015

bwbike said:
If the diesel import costs $7,000 extra, that money could buy a lot of gas. In fact, at today's prices, you could buy 50,000 miles worth of gas for the 2.4L car purchased here.

Even if I liked diesel cars (I don't), I wouldn't go for that extra cost.

Shhh. Stop doing math, it matters not to them.

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raz-0

· #33 · Oct 13, 2015

wn7ant said:
Not really...

I have owned my Renegade trail hawk for exactly 3 months. I have over 12k miles on it. I have a 7 year loan. By year 5 I'll have 240k miles on the Jeep. I then need to buy another one (assuming it lasts that long). I still have 2 years of payments on the original Jeep, plus need to buy another.

I spent 28k on my TrailHawk. Now I need to spend another 28k AND pay off 2/7 of the first one. That's around 30%.

Or I could go all the way to 340000 in a Diesel that I spent 40k on. In both cases I got 8.5 miles per dollar.

The cost is exactly the same. In the second case the vehicle lasted until the end of the loan AND I could tow 3000 pound trailers (instead of 2000 pound trailers). I get more for my money in the second case.

The only other consideration is the cost of gas versus the cost of diesel. I'd get 10 mpg more out of diesel than I do gas, so a 25% higher cost in diesel would net an even fuel bill...

And I can still PULL more with the diesel.

The only advantage that a gas engine offers me is a faster 0 to 60 time. How often do I drag race my Renegade TrailHawk?

You can't tow 3000 pound trailers with the diesel. The limitation is the size, mass, and suspension of the vehicle. The eu is just ok with you towing 3k of trailer and never braking 35mph. The us rating is based on highway speeds, which means less mass to retain safety.

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raz-0

· #35 · Oct 14, 2015

wn7ant said:
I got that from the manual/Jeep. I figured if FCM was willing to document it that they would be willing to accept the liability. Here is where they say a diesel can tow 3300 lbs. So according to Fiat, the Renegade TrailHawk Diesel tows considerably more than the gas version.

Yes. The specs for the EUROPEAN models. They are rated to tow limits that comply with EUROPEAN laws. EUROPEAN laws require that 1) if you are towing you get the equivalent of a license endorsement for it. THEN you are required to operate your vehicle within the safe envelope as specified by the manufacturer.

This means you can be towing your 3000lbs of cargo and blocking up roads at 30mph as your top speed because that is how they do things over there.

In the US, we don't require an endorsement of your license, and we require the vehicle to operate at reasonable highway speeds. The towing capacity is derived from those requirements interacting with the physical characteristics of the vehicle.

The engine has very little to do with it. The major factors are vehicle size, mass, and wheelbase length. The simplified version is that at 30mph, you can tow more trailer before the trailer starts steering the vehicle rather than the vehicle steering the trailer. At 50mph, there is more inertia for the same mass, and you have to reduce that inertia down to a controllable threshold. That is done by limiting the mass of the trailer.

Where engines and transmissions and such come into any rating is with wear and tear on the drivetrain. With the weight and length of the renegade, these are largely secondary issues as controllability goes first.

Here's a nice article on the subject.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611

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raz-0

· #38 · Oct 14, 2015

syzygy said:
you can tow at 50 miles an hour on normal non urban roads and 60mph on dual carriage ways and motorways in the UK.
In parts of Europe the speed allowed is higher.
The only time you are limited to 30mph is when that is the limit for all traffic.
The trailhawks tow limit is 1500kg or 3300lbs
You only need a different licence in the UK if you passed your test after 2013 and the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is over 3500kg or 7700lbs.

As explained to me the law gets weird not in how fast you can tow something, but in how slow you are permitted to tow something. How slow can you go on a major road? I can tell you in the US, the police will be along to talk to you if you are significant impediment and disrupting traffic.

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raz-0

· #40 · Oct 14, 2015

wn7ant said:
That's nice. Using the reference I posted, please explain why the 2.4 liter gas engine tows the same load in Europe and the U.S. The EUROPEAN TrailHawk is EUROPEAN and should tow more if you are correct. I suspect FIAT went with the lower values for both the gas and diesel version of the vehicle so that they only had to produce a single set of standards to answer questions. So I would bet that a Renegade Diesel can tow 3300 pounds safely here in the U.S. at 60 mph. It also has an oscillation damping system in place, so it may be able to do more. I'd REALLY like to see this tested.

Uhh because you didn't read?

"ENGINE: 2.4-LITER MULTIAIR2 TIGERSHARK (only in Russia, Africa and Middle East)"

So.. not europe. If you look at the rest of the document, they don't list a number of stats.

I'd have to look it up, but I suspect we got the 2.4 liter before anyone else, so it has our stats plugged in because that's what got tested first.

The 1.4 is listed in that doc as having a 2000lb towing capcity. That's not what FCAA provides as the standard for the US.

FCA will have zero issues making statements about vehicles that differ for different regulatory environments.

I've greatly exceed tow ratings and tongue weight limits on vehicles. Not on public roads where anyone else is at risk, and certainly not on vehicles I expect to have warranty coverage. Jeep has to care about both of those things.

Another example of differing regulatory environments

UK "Any trailer weighing over 750 kilograms, including its load, must have a working brake system." That's 1653.5 lbs.

NHTSA " For a trailer with a
loaded weight of more than 1,500 pounds, many
states require a separate braking system and a
breakaway switch, located on the tongue of the
trailer, to activate the trailer brakes in the event
the trailer separates from the tow vehicle."

We don't even regulate that at the federal level.

You want to see their test requirements for towing?

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-trailer-practical-test

The US test? It's go buy a trailer and have at it.

If jeep was going to support 3000lbs of trailering in the US, the US manual would say so. We are both speculating, but I'd wager money that bringing the diesel to the US would result in zero change to the tow rating based on vehicle dynamics, us liability law, and the minimal regulation on small trailers at the federal level.

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raz-0

· #42 · Oct 15, 2015

syzygy said:
I would cross whoever explained that to you off of your phone a friend list.
I am sure I have seen a US version of who wants to be a millionaire.

The numbers might be off, but the notion is still the same. According to you you guys can tow up to 60mph, and no faster. In the us, the speed limit is the speed of the road. So up to 80mph at this point and time (unless I'm missing something).

So the degree might have been exaggerated, but the situation is still the same. The vehicle can likely do the EU rated weight at 60mph. But that is not within the safety margins required by US regulatory code, so the rated weight here is 2,000lbs. One more thing in our pile of regulatory differences are what weight trailers have to be braked. EU is lower, which takes some of the handling impact off of the vehicle.

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raz-0

· #44 · Oct 15, 2015

syzygy said:
The diesel renegade is allowed to tow 3300lbs at 81 mph in France.

How many wheels on the trailer and how far back are they? It's not just the vehicles being regulated. Also is that what the law permits, or what jeep says? If so link please.

The us has less regulations. Less licensing requirements, few federal level trailer requirements. We require more margin in the operational envelope.

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raz-0

· #46 · Oct 19, 2015

syzygy said:
Jeep just say 1500kg.
I have no idea about specific trailer laws in France, but I have towed single and double axle caravans of up to 28ft and 4480lbs.
The nose (tongue?) weight is what decides the geometry I think.
The UK caravan club told me I was legal.

Positioning of the mass and wheels affects tongue weight, but they also greatly affect vehicle/trailer dynamics.

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raz-0

· #48 · Oct 20, 2015

kevinfourlegs said:
In the UK brochure, the 2.0 diesel Trailhawk automatic, max towing weight is 1,500 kg braked trailer / 400 kg unbraked trailer. What speeds it can and cannot do, the brochure doesn't say and my owner handbook is in the glove box of my Renegade.

There used to be a minimum speed limit of 30 mph on the UK motorways. Whether or not this is still in force, I don't know.

Yeah, 30mph on a single lane 45-50mph roadway fro any extended period will get you ticketed if it doesn't get you run off the road first.

And right there is a huge difference with the US. US permits up to 1999lbs unbraked. I may not have 100% of the answer of what translates to what, but I'm pretty certain that translating a one liner in the EU manuals to US numbers is not correct math, and that what is written outside the US market will have ZERO bearing on what liability jeep has taken upon themselves in the US market.

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raz-0

· #55 · Jul 11, 2016

Spitfire said:
So...reviving this thread, in reverencde to the original conversation, has anyone been able to bring a diesel Renegade to North America?

Any word if Jeep will ever do so? I keep hearing rumours that other vehicles in the line (Cherokee, for instance) will be available with diesel, but--especially after the VW diesel fiasco--I'm not holding my breath (and if they were to be offered, probably not with a MT--like the Liberty diesel in 2005/2006, automatic only).

I'd pay extra for a 2.0 diesel Renegade with MT. Oh, yeah.

Nope, no diesel. The next one to get it in theory is the wrangler. It'll show when CAFE vs credit trading allowances means it needs something. Right now, next step is mandatory start stop in 2017. Then it is 1 MPG epa window sticker per year after that they have to keep up with or buy credits. One of the easier ways to avoid the target is to make the vehicle bigger without burning much more fuel.

Toyota is going to have a buttload of credits to trade more than likely due to swap rules that work in their favor, which will affect industry timelines as well.

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raz-0

· #57 · Jul 12, 2016

Spitfire said:
How does this work? I've heard rumours that Toyota is planning to bring their diesel models back to North America, but my local dealer says emphatically "No." Can Toyota trade on the fact that they do not intend to bring in diesels?

It gets complicated. The way I read it, the old rule was you could trade credits over years, but now you can trade between models and classes. This means Toyota has a lot of point banked from there micro cars and hybrids.

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