[DieselorDie]

OK I'm Doing IT

Found a Silver Used Renegade. Not Exactly what I want, but it's 27,500USD. So it'll do, I've started a Dialouge with an importer. Now we Wait... http://www.desiragroup.com/used-cars/7903/jeep-renegade/

 

[Incognito]

Are you going to be delivering mail with that Renegade?

The driver's seat is on the "wrong" side.

 

[skoogalicious]

I'm skeptical of how much truth there is to this, as far as I'm aware there's restrictions in place which would ban this. If anybody ends up trying to import a diesel please let's us know if you're successful or not. I'd definitely be interested in doing this a few years down the road

It's possible to import the diesel into the states. The key is getting a "Letter of Conformity" from Fiat-Chrysler. This would provide documentation of what aspects of the Euro-spec diesel meet DOT, NHTSA, and EPA standards, and what will need to be modified for the jeep to be legally registered in the US. I've done research and been hands on with the Euro-spec jeep, and the only modifications that it will need is speedometer/odometer changed out to display miles instead of KM, and a couple of the reflectors need to be different colors. It has OBD II and passenger airbags, which is usually the most expensive modification needed to import a foreign car safety-wise. The engine might need slight safety modifications, but it surpasses the EPA standards. If this engine has never been EPA certified, the testing process costs $2000, which is on top of customs fees, shipping, and whatever the registered importer will charge for holding the vehicle and making these small modifications. I currently live in Germany and own a 2.0L Trailhawk, which I intend to import into the US in a couple years when I return. In the meantime, I'm saving up some dough, because I know it won't be cheap. When I return to the states, I want to lift it and get wider tires, and possibly tune up the engine to see how it does against stock wranglers. Wish me luck!

Long story short: I need a letter of conformity. If Chrysler would release this letter, we would just need to send a Euro spec renegade with this letter to an importer and they would make it able to be registered in the states. Chrysler is renowned for denying these letters to people, and tell me I should have purchased a US spec jeep...... Which is impossible to do in Germany. Oh well. I have some time to convince them, I guess.

 

[GSO_Kyle]

Which NC dealership? I'll be second in line.

 

[SA0GCC]

Maybe a dealership could pull it off, but as a civilian, no chance. I tried to get a Skoda Superb registered for three years and the MY14 Saab 9-3 since last year. Nope, no matter how much paperwork you give those bloody bureaucrats.

I thought getting the ng9-5 Wagon registered in Sweden was difficult. We ain't got **** on you guys.

 

[Copperhead]

If someone ever pulls this off, you can mark me down for a Trailhawk with 2.0L Diesel. That's what I dream about at night.

I can't believe that FCA can't just put a few of the oil burners on a boat and send them to the States. Besides, the US and Europe have identical diesel emissions standards now, so what's the hold up?

 

[wn7ant]

Based on your math, Diesel should be a no brainer for the U.S.

The JEEP RENEGADE DIESEL 2.0L MULTIJET 170HP costs over €30.k

If you convert that into Dollars, considering the present Dollar/Euro Exchange Rate, you talk about almost $40.k to which you need to add the prices of Shipping from Overseas, Customs, and what ever other fees... i think it would be well well over $40k

THAT WOULD BE ONE **** OF AN EXPENSIVE JEEP

Not really...

I have owned my Renegade trail hawk for exactly 3 months. I have over 12k miles on it. I have a 7 year loan. By year 5 I'll have 240k miles on the Jeep. I then need to buy another one (assuming it lasts that long). I still have 2 years of payments on the original Jeep, plus need to buy another.

I spent 28k on my TrailHawk. Now I need to spend another 28k AND pay off 2/7 of the first one. That's around 30%.

Or I could go all the way to 340000 in a Diesel that I spent 40k on. In both cases I got 8.5 miles per dollar.

The cost is exactly the same. In the second case the vehicle lasted until the end of the loan AND I could tow 3000 pound trailers (instead of 2000 pound trailers). I get more for my money in the second case.

The only other consideration is the cost of gas versus the cost of diesel. I'd get 10 mpg more out of diesel than I do gas, so a 25% higher cost in diesel would net an even fuel bill...

And I can still PULL more with the diesel.

The only advantage that a gas engine offers me is a faster 0 to 60 time. How often do I drag race my Renegade TrailHawk?

 

[syzygy]

Not really...

I have owned my Renegade trail hawk for exactly 3 months. I have over 12k miles on it. I have a 7 year loan. By year 5 I'll have 240k miles on the Jeep. I then need to buy another one (assuming it lasts that long). I still have 2 years of payments on the original Jeep, plus need to buy another.

I spent 28k on my TrailHawk. Now I need to spend another 28k AND pay off 2/7 of the first one. That's around 30%.

Or I could go all the way to 340000 in a Diesel that I spent 40k on. In both cases I got 8.5 miles per dollar.

The cost is exactly the same. In the second case the vehicle lasted until the end of the loan AND I could tow 3000 pound trailers (instead of 2000 pound trailers). I get more for my money in the second case.

The only other consideration is the cost of gas versus the cost of diesel. I'd get 10 mpg more out of diesel than I do gas, so a 25% higher cost in diesel would net an even fuel bill...

And I can still PULL more with the diesel.

The only advantage that a gas engine offers me is a faster 0 to 60 time. How often do I drag race my Renegade TrailHawk?

the diesel Trailhawks 0-60 is about 8.5s. what is the 2.4s time?

 

[wn7ant]

the diesel Trailhawks 0-60 is about 8.5s. what is the 2.4s time?

I *think* it's around 6. So NOT a huge difference.

 

[syzygy]

I *think* it's around 6. So NOT a huge difference.

That is a huge difference. I am surprised it is so quick.

 

[wn7ant]

No way...

That is a huge difference. I am surprised it is so quick.

I think it's like 6.8 or 6.9...

Unless I look it up on http://www.edmunds.com/jeep/renegade/2015/road-test-specs1.html

Then I'd say it's... This CAN'T be right...

9.4 seconds?

 

[syzygy]

I think it's like 6.8 or 6.9...

Unless I look it up on http://www.edmunds.com/jeep/renegade/2015/road-test-specs1.html

Then I'd say it's... This CAN'T be right...

9.4 seconds?

Yes that seems way too slow. I would have expected about 8.
What does the jeep site say. It keeps asking me for a post code so I cant access jeep USA.

 

[raz-0]

Not really...

I have owned my Renegade trail hawk for exactly 3 months. I have over 12k miles on it. I have a 7 year loan. By year 5 I'll have 240k miles on the Jeep. I then need to buy another one (assuming it lasts that long). I still have 2 years of payments on the original Jeep, plus need to buy another.

I spent 28k on my TrailHawk. Now I need to spend another 28k AND pay off 2/7 of the first one. That's around 30%.

Or I could go all the way to 340000 in a Diesel that I spent 40k on. In both cases I got 8.5 miles per dollar.

The cost is exactly the same. In the second case the vehicle lasted until the end of the loan AND I could tow 3000 pound trailers (instead of 2000 pound trailers). I get more for my money in the second case.

The only other consideration is the cost of gas versus the cost of diesel. I'd get 10 mpg more out of diesel than I do gas, so a 25% higher cost in diesel would net an even fuel bill...

And I can still PULL more with the diesel.

The only advantage that a gas engine offers me is a faster 0 to 60 time. How often do I drag race my Renegade TrailHawk?

You can't tow 3000 pound trailers with the diesel. The limitation is the size, mass, and suspension of the vehicle. The eu is just ok with you towing 3k of trailer and never braking 35mph. The us rating is based on highway speeds, which means less mass to retain safety.

 

[wn7ant]

I don't think so...

You can't tow 3000 pound trailers with the diesel. The limitation is the size, mass, and suspension of the vehicle. The eu is just ok with you towing 3k of trailer and never braking 35mph. The us rating is based on highway speeds, which means less mass to retain safety.

I got that from the manual/Jeep. I figured if FCM was willing to document it that they would be willing to accept the liability. Here is where they say a diesel can tow 3300 lbs. So according to Fiat, the Renegade TrailHawk Diesel tows considerably more than the gas version.

I get mass. First you have to have the ability to provide the power necessary to get the mass moving. Then, you have to have the ability to stop the mass. The second one is easy with powered brakes. The tow kit has both four pin and seven pin connections. This means you can control the external brakes. Now we're back to getting moving.

Can the transmission handle the load? Yes. The same transmission is used in the Cherokee with this load. Now we have to look at the engine. 350 Nm of torque at 1750 RPM's versus 232 at 4800 RPM's. Look at that low end. Yes, the diesel will move the mass (1500 kg), it has nothing to do with EU standards.

 

[raz-0]

I got that from the manual/Jeep. I figured if FCM was willing to document it that they would be willing to accept the liability. Here is where they say a diesel can tow 3300 lbs. So according to Fiat, the Renegade TrailHawk Diesel tows considerably more than the gas version.

Yes. The specs for the EUROPEAN models. They are rated to tow limits that comply with EUROPEAN laws. EUROPEAN laws require that 1) if you are towing you get the equivalent of a license endorsement for it. THEN you are required to operate your vehicle within the safe envelope as specified by the manufacturer.

This means you can be towing your 3000lbs of cargo and blocking up roads at 30mph as your top speed because that is how they do things over there.

In the US, we don't require an endorsement of your license, and we require the vehicle to operate at reasonable highway speeds. The towing capacity is derived from those requirements interacting with the physical characteristics of the vehicle.

The engine has very little to do with it. The major factors are vehicle size, mass, and wheelbase length. The simplified version is that at 30mph, you can tow more trailer before the trailer starts steering the vehicle rather than the vehicle steering the trailer. At 50mph, there is more inertia for the same mass, and you have to reduce that inertia down to a controllable threshold. That is done by limiting the mass of the trailer.

Where engines and transmissions and such come into any rating is with wear and tear on the drivetrain. With the weight and length of the renegade, these are largely secondary issues as controllability goes first.

Here's a nice article on the subject.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611

 

[syzygy]

Yes. The specs for the EUROPEAN models. They are rated to tow limits that comply with EUROPEAN laws. EUROPEAN laws require that 1) if you are towing you get the equivalent of a license endorsement for it. THEN you are required to operate your vehicle within the safe envelope as specified by the manufacturer.

This means you can be towing your 3000lbs of cargo and blocking up roads at 30mph as your top speed because that is how they do things over there.

In the US, we don't require an endorsement of your license, and we require the vehicle to operate at reasonable highway speeds. The towing capacity is derived from those requirements interacting with the physical characteristics of the vehicle.

The engine has very little to do with it. The major factors are vehicle size, mass, and wheelbase length. The simplified version is that at 30mph, you can tow more trailer before the trailer starts steering the vehicle rather than the vehicle steering the trailer. At 50mph, there is more inertia for the same mass, and you have to reduce that inertia down to a controllable threshold. That is done by limiting the mass of the trailer.

Where engines and transmissions and such come into any rating is with wear and tear on the drivetrain. With the weight and length of the renegade, these are largely secondary issues as controllability goes first.

Here's a nice article on the subject.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611

you can tow at 50 miles an hour on normal non urban roads and 60mph on dual carriage ways and motorways in the UK.
In parts of Europe the speed allowed is higher.
The only time you are limited to 30mph is when that is the limit for all traffic.
The trailhawks tow limit is 1500kg or 3300lbs
You only need a different licence in the UK if you passed your test after 2013 and the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is over 3500kg or 7700lbs.

 

[wn7ant]

Yes. The specs for the EUROPEAN models. They are rated to tow limits that comply with EUROPEAN laws. EUROPEAN laws require that 1) if you are towing you get the equivalent of a license endorsement for it. THEN you are required to operate your vehicle within the safe envelope as specified by the manufacturer.

This means you can be towing your 3000lbs of cargo and blocking up roads at 30mph as your top speed because that is how they do things over there.

In the US, we don't require an endorsement of your license, and we require the vehicle to operate at reasonable highway speeds. The towing capacity is derived from those requirements interacting with the physical characteristics of the vehicle.

The engine has very little to do with it. The major factors are vehicle size, mass, and wheelbase length. The simplified version is that at 30mph, you can tow more trailer before the trailer starts steering the vehicle rather than the vehicle steering the trailer. At 50mph, there is more inertia for the same mass, and you have to reduce that inertia down to a controllable threshold. That is done by limiting the mass of the trailer.

Where engines and transmissions and such come into any rating is with wear and tear on the drivetrain. With the weight and length of the renegade, these are largely secondary issues as controllability goes first.

Here's a nice article on the subject.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611

That's nice. Using the reference I posted, please explain why the 2.4 liter gas engine tows the same load in Europe and the U.S. The EUROPEAN TrailHawk is EUROPEAN and should tow more if you are correct. I suspect FIAT went with the lower values for both the gas and diesel version of the vehicle so that they only had to produce a single set of standards to answer questions. So I would bet that a Renegade Diesel can tow 3300 pounds safely here in the U.S. at 60 mph. It also has an oscillation damping system in place, so it may be able to do more. I'd REALLY like to see this tested.

 

[raz-0]

you can tow at 50 miles an hour on normal non urban roads and 60mph on dual carriage ways and motorways in the UK.
In parts of Europe the speed allowed is higher.
The only time you are limited to 30mph is when that is the limit for all traffic.
The trailhawks tow limit is 1500kg or 3300lbs
You only need a different licence in the UK if you passed your test after 2013 and the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is over 3500kg or 7700lbs.

As explained to me the law gets weird not in how fast you can tow something, but in how slow you are permitted to tow something. How slow can you go on a major road? I can tell you in the US, the police will be along to talk to you if you are significant impediment and disrupting traffic.

 

[syzygy]

As explained to me the law gets weird not in how fast you can tow something, but in how slow you are permitted to tow something. How slow can you go on a major road? I can tell you in the US, the police will be along to talk to you if you are significant impediment and disrupting traffic.

There are no actual lower speed limits, But towing a trailer is no reason for going slow.

 

[raz-0]

That's nice. Using the reference I posted, please explain why the 2.4 liter gas engine tows the same load in Europe and the U.S. The EUROPEAN TrailHawk is EUROPEAN and should tow more if you are correct. I suspect FIAT went with the lower values for both the gas and diesel version of the vehicle so that they only had to produce a single set of standards to answer questions. So I would bet that a Renegade Diesel can tow 3300 pounds safely here in the U.S. at 60 mph. It also has an oscillation damping system in place, so it may be able to do more. I'd REALLY like to see this tested.

Uhh because you didn't read?

"ENGINE: 2.4-LITER MULTIAIR2 TIGERSHARK (only in Russia, Africa and Middle East)"

So.. not europe. If you look at the rest of the document, they don't list a number of stats.

I'd have to look it up, but I suspect we got the 2.4 liter before anyone else, so it has our stats plugged in because that's what got tested first.

The 1.4 is listed in that doc as having a 2000lb towing capcity. That's not what FCAA provides as the standard for the US.

FCA will have zero issues making statements about vehicles that differ for different regulatory environments.

I've greatly exceed tow ratings and tongue weight limits on vehicles. Not on public roads where anyone else is at risk, and certainly not on vehicles I expect to have warranty coverage. Jeep has to care about both of those things.

Another example of differing regulatory environments

UK "Any trailer weighing over 750 kilograms, including its load, must have a working brake system." That's 1653.5 lbs.

NHTSA " For a trailer with a
loaded weight of more than 1,500 pounds, many
states require a separate braking system and a
breakaway switch, located on the tongue of the
trailer, to activate the trailer brakes in the event
the trailer separates from the tow vehicle."

We don't even regulate that at the federal level.

You want to see their test requirements for towing?

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-trailer-practical-test

The US test? It's go buy a trailer and have at it.


If jeep was going to support 3000lbs of trailering in the US, the US manual would say so. We are both speculating, but I'd wager money that bringing the diesel to the US would result in zero change to the tow rating based on vehicle dynamics, us liability law, and the minimal regulation on small trailers at the federal level.