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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
POST ONE:

CR annual survey results are in, understand, they are not the be all and end of of car shopping, but for my hard earned dollars spent I take ALL information into consideration as I don't have a million people to check how thy like their car, how it drives and what problems and issues they have had. This is intended to be a fair review, looking at both the positive and negative issues.

With that said, here are some quotes focused on FCA products that may have an influence on the future reliability of the Renegade.

(*** Comments: my comments below have three asterisks next to them)
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
POST THREE:

... results announced today of the publication's annual Auto Reliability Survey. The publication solicits replies from readers to a questionnaire about their cars and analyzes the results -- this year based on more than a million responses -- to predict the reliability of new vehicles by brand and model.

"Measuring reliability is also not a straightforward process," Brauer says, "because for some it means how many unexpected problems arise while for others it means satisfaction with the cupholders. Car shoppers should keep all of these factors in mind, rather than fixating on a single factor, when considering their next purchase."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...lity-survey-infotainment-unrelaible/18008451/
 

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POST FIVE:

DETROIT (Reuters) The four lowest-scoring brands were all from Fiat Chrysler Automobiles' Chrysler Group, as were five of the bottom seven. Fiat scored the lowest of the 28 brands and the Fiat 500L was named the least reliable among 265 models included in the survey.

Jake Fisher, director of automotive testing for Consumer Reports, said it seems Chrysler has been "picking less reliable partners" as times goes on, from Japan's Mitsubishi Motors Corp to German's Daimler AG to Italy's Fiat.

However, poor results do not always translate into weaker sales. For instance, Chrysler's brands have been at or near the bottom of the survey since at least 2009, while the group's share of the U.S. market has risen to 12.2 percent this year through September from less than 9 percent in 2009.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-tops-fiat-chrysler-last-165145577.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
POST SIX:

According to CR, first-year models from Infiniti, Jeep, Fiat, Ram, Cadillac, Ford and Honda all have suffered significant rates of complaints due to infotainment bugs and glitches.

Rank (Rank last year), brand, worst model, best model

1. (1) Lexus, IS 250, CT 200h
2. (2) Toyota, Avalon, Prius C
3. (5) Mazda, Mazda3 (2.5L), Mazda6*
4. (8) Honda, Odyssey, Civic Coupe

25. (24) Dodge, Dart 1.4T*, Dart (2.0L)*
26. (19) Ram, 2500 & 3500 (turbodiesel),1500 (V-8 4WD)
27. (23) Jeep, Cherokee (4-cyl.)*, Patriot
28. (NA) Fiat, 500L, 500

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...lity-survey-infotainment-unrelaible/18008451/
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
POST SEVEN:

(*** Comments: on the Chrysler 200 are particularly concerning as it is the same engine and transmission that will be used in the Renegade and it is of a similar weight.)

Chrysler 200

Most trim levels come with an underpowered 2.4-liter, four-cylinder engine. Matched with a new, nine-speed automatic intended to optimize performance and fuel economy, the powertrain delivers a commendable 30 mpg overall. But it also proves that more gears aren't necessarily better, with rough and indecisive gear changes and hesitant downshifts.

Why buy one:
Optional Uconnect 8.4 touch-screen infotainment system is easy to use

Why not buy one:
Suspension tuning needs work; both agility and ride comfort fall short
Base four-cylinder engine is underpowered and unrefined
Nine-speed transmission shift quality is worse than many competing six-speed automatics

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/chrysler/200.htm


Chrysler 200: It swings... and misses

Despite a thorough redesign for 2015, the Chrysler 200 continues to languish in the bottom of our midsized-sedan rankings. There have been improvements throughout, reflected in the higher score this year, but the deficiencies are still numerous. The 200 waddles like a larger car; it lacks agility, and the ride is unsettled. The base four-cylinder engine is unrefined and underpowered. The rough-shifting nine-speed transmission proves that having more gears isn’t always better. At least fuel economy is good, at 30 mpg overall.

The polished V6 masks some flaws with its strong power. The cabin is tight, with the driver nestled in the cockpit while passengers pine for more leg and head room, especially in the back seat. Simply put: Every other sedan in this category is better.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2014/12/the-do-it-all-family-sedan/index.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
POST EIGHT:

(*** Comments: on the 500L are particularly concerning as it is the "small wide" platform the Renegade "small wide 4x4" platform is based off of.)

Chrysler, and its sub-brands Dodge, Jeep, and Fiat, did not fare well, particularly with their new or redesigned models. Only four Chrysler products, the Dodge Challenger, Durango, and nonturbo Dart and the undistinguished Jeep Patriot managed to scrape up an average score. Fiat finished at the bottom of the class with the 500L being the most problematic new car in the survey.

Not recommended
Models that now have sufficient data but are below average
*Most models for which we now have sufficient data are based on one model year of data only. Some models in the improved or declined reliability group are also based on one model year.

Fiat 500L*
The 500L scored a Poor in the IIHS small-overlap crash test. First year reliability has been well below average.
But, alas, the 500L is too undeveloped, and several significant flaws keep it from scoring high enough in our testing to be recommended.

Reliability
We expect reliability to be much worse than average, according to our latest subscriber survey.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/10/most-reliable-new-cars/index.htm
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/fiat/500l.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
POST NINE:

(*** Comments: on the Jeep Cherokee are somewhat concerning as it is the same engine and transmission that will be used in the Renegade, but it is a heavier vehicle.)

Jeep Cherokee*
The list of flaws is long. Performance and fuel economy from the four-cylinder engine is pathetic. It struggles and feels underpowered, while returning only 22 mpg overall, which makes the Cherokee one of the least fuel-efficient models in this category. The V6 is far more pleasant and is definitely the better choice, but it still isn't particularly quick. A new nine-speed automatic transmission may give the Cherokee bragging rights, but it delivers rough, unrefined, and ill-timed shifts. Thick roof pillars hurt visibility and the driving position is awkward. Handling is competent but dull, and the ride is jittery.

Based on the same Fiat-derived platform as the Dodge Dart small sedan, the Cherokee feels half-baked, as if it was rushed to market, despite a delay of almost nine months from its initial launch date.

On the plus side, the Jeep is relatively quiet and has a roomy rear seat. It also offers a plethora of luxury-level features and high-tech electronic safety gear. The Uconnect 8.4 touch screen combines top-level connectivity with friendly usability. And if you need your small SUV to tow 4,500 pounds or tackle tough off-road conditions, the Cherokee may be your only choice. Most small-SUV buyers don't need those capabilities, however, and probably wouldn't use them.

Why buy one:
Feels solid and quiet
Uconnect 8.4 touch-screen infotainment system is one of the best we've seen
Impressive suite of available upscale features including advanced electronic safety aids
Trailhawk versions are capable off-roaders

Why not buy one:
The nine-speed transmission is good for bragging rights but not smooth shifts
The four-cylinder engine is woefully underpowered and not very fuel efficient
Thick roof pillars seriously constrain visibility
Desirable features often require purchasing expensive option packages with more stuff than you want

Viable alternatives:
Ford Escape (this is closest to a direct competitor; it's quiet, feels solid, and offers lots of options, but it has been unreliable)
Subaru Forester
Honda CR-V

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/10/most-reliable-new-cars/index.htm
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/jeep/cherokee.htm
 

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Since I don't have a subscription, maybe you can provide insight, but based on the quotes, it seems to engage in conflating certain things that should not be.

They don't like the 9 speed with the dog clutches. We got that. It's an opinion, and people will have to decide for themselves, but they put all this oput there as if their opinion on what is and is not underpowered, or if they dislike the transmission, or if the fact a smaller SUV built to ahve more truck like capabilities has a.... get this.... more trucky ride, are somehow part and parcel with the reliablity or the quality of the vehicle.

They bitch about the 200, which isn't unexpected, the 200 has been the whipping boy for car reviewers for years. I expect everyone is either going to continue that pattern and bash it regardless, or wind up with the highlander 3 effect where it seems better than it is because the last one left you expecting something unfathomably bad.

As a touchstone... they ream the 200 for having an underpowered engine. Do they ream the base altima? Yeah, it's about 300lbs lighter, but it has even less power. Reviewers usually say the 4 banger is the better engine for the car because of the v6's torque steer. Or do they praise one of the more popular appliances?

They feel the ford escape will show it up... if you don't mind the thing being unreliable. uh..

So they do a survey with mystery metrics... then refuse to state what they really are. Then in the absence of an explanation as to the score they provide their opinions on vehicles. Intentional or not, the net result of that is the reader tends to substitute the explanation as the reason for the score.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
So they do a survey with mystery metrics... then refuse to state what they really are.
Not really mystery metrics, they are available:

Overview
Owner Satisfaction
Predicted Reliability
Owner Costs
Crash and rollover tests

Safety
Accident avoidance
Antilock brakes
Traction control
Stability control
NHTSA overall frontal-crash
NHTSA front-crash, driver/front passenger
NHTSA rollover, 2WD/4WD

Performance
Acceleration
Transmission
Routine handling
Emergency handling
Braking
Headlights

Comfort/convenience
Ride
Noise
Driving position
Front seat comfort
Rear seat comfort
Front access
Rear access
Controls and display
Interior fit and finish
Trunk/Cargo Area
Climate system
Fuel Economy

Trouble spots by year
Engine Major
Engine Cooling
Transmission Major
Transmission Minor
Drive System
Fuel System
Engine Minor
Electrical System
New Car Prediction
 

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I've owned Fords, GMs, Chryslers (Ram and Jeep), and Toyotas and the wife has had MINIs (BMW) and Nissans mostly.....and I can say with all honesty that my Chrysler vehicles have always been the best ones we've had in terms of build quality and reliability. They've always spent the least time in the shop and had the fewest repairs. And the poor fuel economy comes from the heavier weight compared to other vehicles in the same segment...but...the weight also means a safer vehicle.

I'll stick with Jeep until the cows come home. CR can say what they want. Only thing CR is remotely good for is picking appliances.
 

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Not really mystery metrics, they are available:

Overview
Owner Satisfaction
Predicted Reliability
Owner Costs
Crash and rollover tests

Safety
Accident avoidance
Antilock brakes
Traction control
Stability control
NHTSA overall frontal-crash
NHTSA front-crash, driver/front passenger
NHTSA rollover, 2WD/4WD

Performance
Acceleration
Transmission
Routine handling
Emergency handling
Braking
Headlights

Comfort/convenience
Ride
Noise
Driving position
Front seat comfort
Rear seat comfort
Front access
Rear access
Controls and display
Interior fit and finish
Trunk/Cargo Area
Climate system
Fuel Economy

Trouble spots by year
Engine Major
Engine Cooling
Transmission Major
Transmission Minor
Drive System
Fuel System
Engine Minor
Electrical System
New Car Prediction

Ok, so what, in each of those categories differentiates a red circle form a black one?

How is the "new car prediction" done for cars without surveys. You do realize the headline about the 500L would be primarily composed of that category, right?

Predicted reliability is also an entry. SO does their prediction get rated twice, compared to say.. the transmission grenadeing being weighted once? If they do account for such things, how do they re-weight them, and under what conditions does one thing count more than something else.

There's also the fact that they are mixing things that make something unreliable with things that are a matter of opinion/ergonomics/preference. They shouldn't be. Those aren't consistent metrics.

Number of times a vehicle left you stranded might be.
Number of trips to the shop for repairs, average cost of repair, and average duration of stay per repair would be, but they don't do that.
 

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Here is the reliability study in its PDF entirety http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2014-10/81798343-27151634.pdf

Two jeeps on the Worst SUV list...
And by worst, near as I can tell, they have the worst "reliability" and both models get there from CR predicted reliability, not actual measured reliability.


So...

Also it has Mitsu as the most reliable SUV, and mitsubishi isn't even on their list in which FCA cars take up the bottom positions.

In debating this kind of stuff, I found a neat site. Here is the cherokee vs. the forrester based on actual owner feedback. If you click through to the individual vehicles, you cna look at the problem descriptions form the end users.

http://www.truedelta.com/Jeep-Cherokee/problems-143-2014/vs-Forester-251-2014

Note that this is the bottom of the barrel vs. the top vehicle of the #7 ranked brand for CR.

Repair rate for the cherokee is 35.7% and repair rate for the forester is 34.4%, that delta is vast and insurmountable to be sure. Unlike CR, you can actually see what people complained about.

Is it right and will tell you your experience? No idea. Is it way more transparent than CR? yes.
 

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Here is the reliability study in its PDF entirety http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2014-10/81798343-27151634.pdf

Two jeeps on the Worst SUV list...
Ok.. another wacky quesiton for what kind of crack does CR smoke.

One.. compact trucks.They are all better than average. So what is the average based on? Can't be the segment.

Two. to go with the mtisu is the best small SUV, but mitsu isn't in the ranked list of manufacturers, how do you posisbly make up this list, and NOT have the ford F-150 on the full sized pickup list. It's only the top selling vehicle of that segment.. easy to miss right?

Three, how the heck does the jeep compass get the only one model year predictive guess asterisk? Did I miss a meaningful redesign not on the roadmap? Other than pacific rim clickbait sites, nobody seems to think I did. (heck, more than 1/3 of that entire small SUV segment is asterisked).

Not that I think jeep is the end all be all of quality, but if I believed those charts, I should be hearing a lot more complaints form people I know and discuss cars with. They drive a lot of things CR doesn't say are good. And CR's presentation of mystery data sticks in my craw. So frogive me fro being a bit ranty.

Also of note, notice everything is percentage delta from some unspecified average. What is it. Form their segment charts it's not he average fro the segment because there are segments where everything is above average. Is it number of incidents? An example of pointless differentiation that you can hide with that.

Take luxury midsized/large SUV the range in the segment goes from 45% better than the average to 80% worse than the average. Lets jsut say the average is 2... uh whatevers, they don't tell us. But lets just call it two incidents that exceed the threshold of my car is fine to awesome and make you frown or cost you money. Normalize the average to 2 of those, and that means the worst one in the segment has 3.6 incidents and the best has about 1 incident. If that's trips to the shop jumbled up with not liking the infotainment system, they all might as well be the same with regards to reliable transportation. If it's non warranty reapairs it might matter. It's a huge difference between a $50 fix and a $5000 fix. I'd rather count on 3+ of the $50 ones than roll the dice on the ~1 $5k fix. Normalize it to say 100, and you have 180 vs. 55 whatevers. If they are non warranty fixes, both are annoying POSs. If that is how many times you curse at the infotainment system in one year, that's not a matter of reliability for a piece of transportation. Satisfaction, sure. Annoying? most definitely. Will it leave me stranded or with a multi kilo-buck bill on an upside down vehice? No.

They tell you what areas they ask questions in, and the number of surveys answered, but they don't tell you any meaningful information, and stuff is SOOOOO cooked down that how you cook it is basically 100% of the meaning. We know only a few things. CR's subjective assessment goes into the secret sauce in addition to the data. CR does some mangling of numbers to deal with underrepresented vehicles. CR does some projection/.number mangling to deal with new new vehicles. CR has changed the weighting of different parts of the car (two we know for a fact is that corrosion has been decreased in value, and infotainment systems has been increased in value).

I can, and do, argue that this isn't really data. In fact, without more info, this could be the equivalent to staring a channel of static long enough that you think you can almost see images trying to take shape and sounds trying to be formed. You can't deny that there is information present, and you cna' deny that people's brians try to process it, but objectively, it's static that conveys no meaning. If you want me to believe the ghosts talk ot you through it, you need some evidence. If you want me to beleive that the static is a series of huge QR codes, hand me the algorithm for decoding it.
 

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I just think any sort of survey where opinion or "satisfaction" comes into play negates much of its usefulness to me.

I prefer facts (some of which are included in CRs report) such as crash tests, performed by unbiased professionals.

All the categories like acceleration, driving position, and all the satisfaction surveys that allow people to say they were unsatisfied because they didn't like the infotainment interface, muddy the waters for me.

I tend to throw out the absolute top results and bottom results (unless they make up a significant portion of the reviews) of more "review" type surveys than useful fact-based surveys.

***I have not taken the time to look over ALL of the information CalTom has provided***

With the exception of Takata airbags and floor mats sticking under accelerators, most popular American and European vehicles are at the very least decent vehicles in regards to performance and reliability. Obviously everyone can produce a lemon from time to time.
 
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